Why A Pump Over Auto For Home Defense

I don't understand Old Grump. If you are concerned with giving away your position, why tell them to freeze and identify. Racking one immediately before giving a challenge tends to add some authority. Also, depending on ambient light, I may light up the target with a weapon light and that is likely to give away my general position. At the same time it hopefully temporarily blinds and disorients the BG. As for the safety, the first thing I am doing upon suspecting the presence of an intruder is taking it off.
 
As for the safety, the first thing I am doing upon suspecting the presence of an intruder is taking it off.
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I've got to disagree with this approach. It only takes an instant to disengage a safety and I'm not moving it off until I mean to shoot the bg; not just when I'm "suspecting" his presence. No different than shooting grouse over a dog. Only at the flush does the safety come off, not when the only thing I see is my setter on point.
 
If I wanted a "Tactical fighting shotgun" ....I'd pick the semi-auto Benelli M-4 ...its a gas operated gun. And I hear it all the time in gunshops...its a great gun / but its too expensive ...and they don't offer enough "tacky - cool" junk to hang off it ....

http://www.benelliusa.com/shotguns/benelli_m4.php

They list at $ 1,799/and in my area they are selling new for around $ 1625. I think its a solid gun / I've fired a few of them at my local range / nothing not to like about them in my opinion.

I think the argument about pump vs semi-auto reliability is overblown / if you look at some of the better semi-autos on the market today ( not the $ 300 import specials ) .../ but old bias dies hard...
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I just don't subscribe to the idea that everyone needs a "Tactical shotgun" or they are somehow under-gunned ...in the event of something / but then I don't think everyone needs a black rifle either ...

I realize I'm old school / but my primary defense is handled by a Wilson Combat 1911 chambered in .45 acp / and my backup sock drawer gun is a Sig 226 in .40S&W ....and if I have to fight my way to my safe ...there are any number of shotguns and rifles that can come out if necessary ....but an 8 round mag in a 1911 / if you practice with it weekly ( and I do ) is an excellent defensive weapon.

My other issue with many of the Tactical Shotguns / mostly pump guns...isn't really with the gun --- its with the owners - and there are way too many of them that get purchased because they look cool - and everyone thinks they "need one" .../ the owner and his buddies fire 20 rds ..maybe even 60 rds of OO buck with it / or slugs or whatever when its new ....then it gets put away / leans in the corner of a closet or somewhere ...for 5 yrs or more / without every being touched again.

They aren't particularly fun to shoot / they aren't any good at clays / OO Buck and slugs are expensive ( $ 60 for 100 rds or so ) ....and a lot of guys spending $ 250 on a shotgun don't want to spend another $ 60 to fire 100 rds .../ and I get it ....but if its a primary defensive weapon / and you don't train with it - don't use it .../ you're relying on the "image" of it being a perfect defensive weapon ...when you might just be kidding yourself...

Some guys do the same thing with handguns ....buy a gun / put 100 rds thru it ...put it away for 5 yrs ...and think they're protected ...its just as nuts !! Maybe its even worse / because the muscle memory to manipulate a handgun is probably tougher than manipulating a shotgun ....but its still nuts!

In my opinon --- if you think you need a weapon for defense ( and not everyone does ! -- or not everyone should ! --- especially if they aren't going to train with them !! .......but if you do ....buying a pump shotgun, or a good quality semi-auto shotgun ...or a good handgun ....can all be effective ....if you train with them and are competent with them !! Pump vs semi-auto shotgun makes no difference ...

I just wish more guys would think about the time they spend training and shooting vs what to buy .......and then leave it in a closet ! One of my boys is in his mid 30's ....and 90% of his buddies have purchased Rem 870's tactical shotguns ...and not a single one of them has fired their shotgun in well over 3 yrs. My son lives about 4 hours from me ....and we get together 6 or 8 times a yr ...to shoot some skeet, sporting, etc ...and do some handgun training with revolvers and 1911's, etc .... and its not a scientific study ....but in that group of young guys that goes with us to the range ....I just keep asking ...have you shot that 870 in awhile ...and its ...a slumped shoulder, hang head ....no ..... ??? I think its a one in a gazillion chance any of them will every need a defensive weapon ...or at least I hope so ...but if they won't train with them ...I wish they'd lock em up ...until they do.

I think if you ask among your buddies that have them -- its going to be a high percentage of guys that never shoot them ....sadly ...
 
I don't understand Old Grump. If you are concerned with giving away your position, why tell them to freeze and identify. Racking one immediately before giving a challenge tends to add some authority. Also, depending on ambient light, I may light up the target with a weapon light and that is likely to give away my general position. At the same time it hopefully temporarily blinds and disorients the BG. As for the safety, the first thing I am doing upon suspecting the presence of an intruder is taking it off.
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Relying on a sound to scare an intruder is counterproductive. What if it is a family member, you scare the bejesus out of him and he makes a sudden move towards their room and you mistake it for an aggressive move. You shot Junior for trying to sneak in after a late date and you didn't even know he was gone out of the house. Point is an unchambered gun is an empty gun and while I'm pumping the bad guy could be shooting.

If I yell freeze he has the opportunity to run, freeze or identify himself. Wrong response I only have to aim and pull the trigger. If it's multiple intruders and they are identified as intruders there is no warning clack-kathunk. Just a loud noise, a flash of light and a scream of pain from the unlucky guy who just caught a load of #4 in the side of his head. Advantage mine.

If I pump the gun first I have 3 or 4 guns shooting in my direction, advantage them.
 
+535 to Lordtio

There is nothing wrong with any shotgun save the single shot(which still would perform just fine). I have never had an FTF with my 870 in all the duck, dove, geese, turkey, skeet, and sporting clays I have shot. The only errors I recall were when I was younger and loaded a shell in backwards when my nerves were going crazy during a goose shoot. The BIGGEST issue with autoloaders is without question their reliability when it comes down to AMMO. Pumps will not have the same failure to eject issue with questionable ammo that an auto will. But if you are willing to put the time and effort and coin into buying proper ammo and testing it, then there is no debate on which is better. It remains shooter preference.

The issue of what is better must be stopped because to each his own. The fastest follow up shot from a shotgun will be from a double barrel anyway. There is a reason proffessional hunters in Africa use double rifles, not autos, pumps, bolts, or any of that on the big game. They use large bore doubles.

And again...not everyone can afford a $1500 dollar gun. I will take the $200 and spend that extra $1300 on ammo to practice with. That way it doesn't really matter if it is an autoloader or pump I will still have an edge because I fired $1300 worth of ammo out of a gun that I know I can trust lol.
 
Old Grump. You may well be right and I may be all wrong, but in a situation where there are 3 or 4 armed intruders I suspect one's best chance of survival is avoiding a gun fight. I just don't see a group of armed men being overly concerned with a challenge unless they realize it is backed up by something better than a baseball bat and once you pull the trigger the fight is on.
 
One very important item I don't think anyone has brought up is the ability to combat load with the pump. Watch how fast this cowbay action shooter combat loads the pump - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1BwUJ4--Qw

You'd have a hard time doing that with a semi-auto.

Also, I was in shotgun course last year and the guy to my left had two jams during the course with a Benelli semi-auto. The instructor had to come over and help him untangle it each time. I was using a 590 and the only problem I had was I short-stroked it one time, but recovered quickly with almost no time lost.

Ed
 
I have an 1100 and a variety of others. I like this one as far as a double barrel.
 

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I've got to disagree with this approach. It only takes an instant to disengage a safety and I'm not moving it off until I mean to shoot the bg; not just when I'm "suspecting" his presence. No different than shooting grouse over a dog. Only at the flush does the safety come off, not when the only thing I see is my setter on point.
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And I'll disagree with this - get the safety button off, the REAL safety is between your ears - don't put your booger hook on the bang switch until you are ready to fire - whether over your dog or in your hallway - it is faster to put your finger on the trigger than to take the safety off and possibly move your grip
 
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I have experiance with the 1100 and I understand them. And yes the ones I have had jam.
In my opinion the win 1400 is a better auto then the 1100 rem. I turned one it to a HD
Gun with very little work. I personly have about 2000 rounds through it. That's after I got the gun when my father passed away. A caint even begin to tell you how many rabbits and birds he had shot with it. A much better gun the the new one win has out now.
Again this is my opinon
 
Old Grump. You may well be right and I may be all wrong, but in a situation where there are 3 or 4 armed intruders I suspect one's best chance of survival is avoiding a gun fight. I just don't see a group of armed men being overly concerned with a challenge unless they realize it is backed up by something better than a baseball bat and once you pull the trigger the fight is on.
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Fight is on as soon as they break into your house. It is up to them to deescalate it by surrendering or running away. I don't know about your house but I have lights that illuminate my house from kitchen through the dining room to the Living room. The only dark spots are the bedrooms and mine is in the middle of the house. They won't be able to see me but I will be able to see them unless they cut my power. Again I know my own house and people know they are free to come in my house but they announce themselves when they do. If they don't and it is dark thirty then they are presumed to be hostile unless they sing out.

A 4 cell Maglight with the beam focus set on narrow sits on my night stand alongside of my revolver. If I am behind the beam and expecting it advantage mine. A quick on off tells me if it is a shoot/no shoot situation and they are seeing a yellow spot in front of their eyes, night sight done gone kaput. Don't mess with old people, some of us have been to a party and got old anyway. I'm protecting family and that makes me kind of touchy about who I find sneaking around my house.

Seriously it isn't about what gun or what load you have in your hands but the willingness and the ability to deploy it in workman like fashion. I'm not the guy to worry about but the little 5'2" 180 pound middle aged grandma who has been mugged and got her first gun. You don't know what or when or where she is going to shoot so be very very careful about breaking her door down. She might not stop till her Glock 17 is empty. At least with me you have a chance to surrender or run and I won't shoot anymore than necessary.
 
Those of you worried about reliability, whether pump or self-loader, would you not be better off with a double barrel shotgun. Granted, you will give up the number of shots available, but for utter reliability, can't beat it. And you can't beat a doubles speed either, at least for two rounds.

My point is that no gun is one hundred percent reliable one hundred percent of the time. Close, but no cigar.
 
price/reliability

A autoloader that I can afford would have questionable reliability.

The burgalar hears you rack the shotgun, knows where you are now and you hear a rack too..

Or you get shot because of lost time racking the shotgun.
 
Hot dog is right. I have several double barrels all without external hammers and they can fail to fire. My stoeger 20 gauge has never misfired, but my stoeger 12 does so 20% of the time(I have tried to fix it and so has stoeger) I keep a S&W .38 revolver next to the bed. It has never misfired; missed a few times LOL but it wasn't the guns fault:D

A guard dog is good(if you don't get so attached to it that you feel you have to defend it like you would a child; that is why it won't work for me:o) Guard dogs can fail, but they usually deter or at least provide an early warning.
 
I have several double barrels all without external hammers and they can fail to fire.
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Doubtless that external hammers are the least likely to fail, but double triggered shotguns have separate firing mechanisms and are less likely to fail than shotguns equipped with single selective triggers.
 
I think it boils down to what a man is comfortable with and feels most secure with.

My father has never owned a pump gun or SS or OU EVER! He has had ONE bolt action .410 mossberg that was his first "real gun" as a child. But EVERY other shotgun was a simple single shot.

If my M-500 20ga. ever fails to perform, I would rethink my strategy. This thing is old enuff to drink and has never given me a reason to fear a failure.

Big Jim will cringe again... But a while back I posted about boiling my trigger group since trigger pull went from a bit too stiff to "DANG!!! Is the safety on" due to grunge but it still cycled and fired as it should.

Brent
 
Have you ever noticed that many professional guide in Africa use double rifles as back-ups? Why? Utter reliability is one reason. You might only get two rounds, but they are pretty close to sure.

Also, in the unlikely one firing pin fails, you have a seperate and independent barrel with its own firing mechanism. If that also fails, it just wasn't your day.
 
I fall into the camp of, if you have it, and have shot it on several occasions, and it hasn't failed, then USE the dang thing. If it's a pump, great. If it's an autoloader, great. A double? Fine, if that's what you are comfortable with.
I don't overthink these things... you can die of ulcers worrying about "what if it decides to fail just when I NEED it" If it is not a chronic "failer", then why would it be more likely to fail at 2:00 am in your living room than at 2:00 pm in the pasture?
ANY machine can fail. Period. Murphy's Law is funny to talk about, but probably has no real bearing on actual reliability. Keep it clean, use it regularly, and it more than likely will work when needed... whether it's a quail or a bad guy.
 
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