Who's To Blame?
- Thread starter roy reali
- Start date
Cmu_Sniper
New member
None of us were there and do not know what happened. If it wouldnt involve the VP we wouldnt even be talking about this. There are a million other things you can waste your time and talk about and people you can degrade, this is digging from the bottom of the barrel.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Mainly the VP, but as I've tried to explain to some jerkwater on another board, Mr. Whittington also has to share some of the blame.
One of the rules that was absolutely DRILLED into me when I started hunting upland bird is that when you're shooting with a group, it's normally in areas that have lots of obscuring cover, so it's MANDATORY that if you leave the group for any reason you keep up a conversation with them, or announce yourself as you're returning.
The nature of upland bird hunting is that the shooting direction can change in a heartbeat.
One of the rules that was absolutely DRILLED into me when I started hunting upland bird is that when you're shooting with a group, it's normally in areas that have lots of obscuring cover, so it's MANDATORY that if you leave the group for any reason you keep up a conversation with them, or announce yourself as you're returning.
The nature of upland bird hunting is that the shooting direction can change in a heartbeat.
Lord_Nikon
New member
I'm going with both. Cheney for obvious reasons, and Whittington due to the reasons stated by Mike Irwin.
Sir William
New member
I blame the failure to be sober, failure to follow the rules of safety, failure to obey federal and state laws, failure to follow established hunting protocols and arrogance.
TexiCali Slim
New member
I agree with Sir William, The rules apply to everyone! and whats funny is that everyone on the forum keeps saying it's not a big deal, but if I shot one of my buddys on accident that would be the talk of the town, so it is a big deal and it was stupid. BTW I did vote that they were both stupid.
Verdict first, trial later?
Do we know all the facts of the matter yet?
Is this Wonderland and are you Alice?
John
P.S. - We do know that Mr. Whittington was a in dried up pond several feet lower than where the two hunters were standing. We don't know if he had picking up something from behind some tall grass or bushes. Reports in the W. Post also say the setting sun was behind him and the wind was "gusting" enough to impair communication.
Do we know all the facts of the matter yet?
Is this Wonderland and are you Alice?
John
P.S. - We do know that Mr. Whittington was a in dried up pond several feet lower than where the two hunters were standing. We don't know if he had picking up something from behind some tall grass or bushes. Reports in the W. Post also say the setting sun was behind him and the wind was "gusting" enough to impair communication.
The VP. He's the one that broke Rule #4. He failed to take in what was surrounding his target and beyond.
What pisses me off most is that no one in the media or those with connections to it are publcizing the 4 rules that gun owners live by (or are supposed to) and is turning this into a circus rather than a boneheaded lapse in discipline and basic firearm safety.
What pisses me off most is that no one in the media or those with connections to it are publcizing the 4 rules that gun owners live by (or are supposed to) and is turning this into a circus rather than a boneheaded lapse in discipline and basic firearm safety.
lizziedog1
New member
I do think it was a tragic accident. However, I voted giving the fault to Cheney. Don't get me wrong, I like the guy. I am Republican and usually vote that way, but he did pull the trigger.
The VP did mention that the Sun played a factor in that it obscured his vision. If that is the case, he should have pulled off his swing until he could get a clear view.
I have been bird hunting several times. I have gone into the field with other hunters and many dogs at one time. Once in awhile I have refused to pull the trigger because I was not one hundred percent sure of the location of other hunters or dogs. To me no bird is worth it.
I do feel bad for the VP. This will stay with him for the rest of his life. This will more then likely haunt him if he ever takes to the field again. But he did pull the trigger.
The VP did mention that the Sun played a factor in that it obscured his vision. If that is the case, he should have pulled off his swing until he could get a clear view.
I have been bird hunting several times. I have gone into the field with other hunters and many dogs at one time. Once in awhile I have refused to pull the trigger because I was not one hundred percent sure of the location of other hunters or dogs. To me no bird is worth it.
I do feel bad for the VP. This will stay with him for the rest of his life. This will more then likely haunt him if he ever takes to the field again. But he did pull the trigger.
Edward429451
Moderator
Of course it's mainly the VP he had the trigger finger.
I don't think it's a stretch to assign some blame to Mr. Whittington. Hunting with others is like driving defensivly. You can be doing everything right and some other inattentive driver will not see you so you must be doing everything right AND looking out for him too.
Pedestrians have the right of way.
Look both ways before crossing the street honey.
Along those lines.
I don't think it's a stretch to assign some blame to Mr. Whittington. Hunting with others is like driving defensivly. You can be doing everything right and some other inattentive driver will not see you so you must be doing everything right AND looking out for him too.
Pedestrians have the right of way.
Look both ways before crossing the street honey.
Along those lines.
loggerhead
Moderator
Political parties aside, loyalty to the administration behind us, accept the fact that it was an accident, and one must find that the shooter is the guilty party. I am amazed at some of these supposed responsible gun owners and hunters thinking that when bird hunting you can expect people to be shooting in a helter skelter manner. If that were true there would be very few people, in their right mind that would ever go bird hunting.
To me its like a deer hunter shooting an ole farmer, out looking for his cow, and because he didn;t have on hunter orange its his fault. I was taught all my life to be sure of what I pointed my gun at and not to point it at anything that I did not intend to shoot.
To me its like a deer hunter shooting an ole farmer, out looking for his cow, and because he didn;t have on hunter orange its his fault. I was taught all my life to be sure of what I pointed my gun at and not to point it at anything that I did not intend to shoot.
lizziedog1
New member
ED
I am willing to concede that the victim's move was not bright. I might even assign him ten or twenty percent of the fault if the Sun was not involved. If the Sun was a factor in the VP's field of vision, then the VP's blame is 99 percent.
This thing with the Sun was mentioned by Cheney himself. He said that the Sun was low at time of the shot. If the Sun was in his eyes, I don't see how he could even keep tracking the bird, let alone see an unintended target. Being sure of what lies beyond your target is a very important safety rule. Having your vision obscured by the Sun would make it nearly impossible to determine what lies in front of you. Blaming anyone or anything else does not do anything to help our sport or our cause. This accident should be used as a learning tool. Then we could say some good came from it.
I am willing to concede that the victim's move was not bright. I might even assign him ten or twenty percent of the fault if the Sun was not involved. If the Sun was a factor in the VP's field of vision, then the VP's blame is 99 percent.
This thing with the Sun was mentioned by Cheney himself. He said that the Sun was low at time of the shot. If the Sun was in his eyes, I don't see how he could even keep tracking the bird, let alone see an unintended target. Being sure of what lies beyond your target is a very important safety rule. Having your vision obscured by the Sun would make it nearly impossible to determine what lies in front of you. Blaming anyone or anything else does not do anything to help our sport or our cause. This accident should be used as a learning tool. Then we could say some good came from it.
Edward429451
Moderator
I can agree with that.
I didn't mean legal blame though, I meant uh, moral blame. Whittington should have been able to stop himself from being shot (maybe) by staying out of potential fields of fire.
When I drive with the sun low & behind me, I'm cognizant of the fact that those oncoming cars have the sun in their eyes. Eh?
And loggerhead...Yeah, I think it's to be expected for people to shoot helter skelter. We hope they do not but expect them to for safety reasons. It doesn't sound right maybe but it's a dangerous planet and no one is perfect.
I didn't mean legal blame though, I meant uh, moral blame. Whittington should have been able to stop himself from being shot (maybe) by staying out of potential fields of fire.
When I drive with the sun low & behind me, I'm cognizant of the fact that those oncoming cars have the sun in their eyes. Eh?
And loggerhead...Yeah, I think it's to be expected for people to shoot helter skelter. We hope they do not but expect them to for safety reasons. It doesn't sound right maybe but it's a dangerous planet and no one is perfect.
lizziedog1
New member
ED
I agree that there isn't or shouldn't be any legal responsibility here. But in a civil trial, a jury can assign percentage of blame between two parties. Even car wrecks are sometimes handled this way. Here is how I would call it at this time, realizing that there are many facts that are unknown.
If there was no Sun involved I would assign the VP 80 percent of the blame and the victim 20 percent. If the VP's vision was affected by the Sun, then he would get 95% with the remainder of fault going to the victm.
I agree that there isn't or shouldn't be any legal responsibility here. But in a civil trial, a jury can assign percentage of blame between two parties. Even car wrecks are sometimes handled this way. Here is how I would call it at this time, realizing that there are many facts that are unknown.
If there was no Sun involved I would assign the VP 80 percent of the blame and the victim 20 percent. If the VP's vision was affected by the Sun, then he would get 95% with the remainder of fault going to the victm.
Edward429451
Moderator
I agree with those percentages. Sounds pretty accurate.
I applaud the VP for stepping up to 100% of the responsibility. I'd feel the same way if it were me.
I applaud the VP for stepping up to 100% of the responsibility. I'd feel the same way if it were me.
lizziedog1
New member
ED
I too admire the VP for being honest and taking responsibility for the accident. I am surprised by the members posting here and similar threads that are willing to let the VP slide so easily. No one should be attacking him as a criminal, but to overlook this would be a crime. Like I said earlier, this should be a learning experience for us and for future hunters.
I have a grandson that is coming of shooting age. I plan to start him on some rimfire shooting soon. If he were to bring up this incident, first I would tell him it was a tragic accident. I would also point out how he took full responsibility for his actions. Then I would explain how even a man like the VP of the United States can cause harm by a momentary lapse of gun safety procedures. Hopefully my grandson would realize that all the gun safety rules must followed by everyone at all times.
I too admire the VP for being honest and taking responsibility for the accident. I am surprised by the members posting here and similar threads that are willing to let the VP slide so easily. No one should be attacking him as a criminal, but to overlook this would be a crime. Like I said earlier, this should be a learning experience for us and for future hunters.
I have a grandson that is coming of shooting age. I plan to start him on some rimfire shooting soon. If he were to bring up this incident, first I would tell him it was a tragic accident. I would also point out how he took full responsibility for his actions. Then I would explain how even a man like the VP of the United States can cause harm by a momentary lapse of gun safety procedures. Hopefully my grandson would realize that all the gun safety rules must followed by everyone at all times.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"I blame the failure to be sober,"
You have any definitive PROOF that the VP had been drinking and was impaired, or are you just engaging in speculation?
If you have PROOF that the VP had been drinking, I urge you to contact the local prosecutor's office immediately.
You have any definitive PROOF that the VP had been drinking and was impaired, or are you just engaging in speculation?
If you have PROOF that the VP had been drinking, I urge you to contact the local prosecutor's office immediately.