i tend to agree, but the 870 has been here since 1950-51, making it older than the md 12 was when it was discontued. the model 12 was a finely made shotgun with many hand fitted parts and the time of low cost skilled labor were a thing of the past and the remington,s stamped parts could be made with a hi pressure press with a less skilled laborer. over all cost killed the model 12 and had nothing to do with it not being a ex shotgun. the bean counters won again. i own a 20ga,16ga and a 12ga winchester shotguns and love them. eastbank.
who still shoots winchester model 12's?
- Thread starter stuckinthe60s
- Start date
stuckinthe60s
New member
the quality of the gun never waivered.
the quality of the customer did.
owning a Winchester no longer was a status symbol.
shooting on the cheap became the quest.
that.... killed the m12.
the quality of the customer did.
owning a Winchester no longer was a status symbol.
shooting on the cheap became the quest.
that.... killed the m12.
stuckinthe60s
New member
![it[1].jpg](/data/attachments/79/79986-b7e6c2463342ad778cd065c633de3fd3.jpg?hash=dW6hMalDp_)
I was never a model 12 fan, or a model 37 fan. They just didn't do it for me, whereas the first time I picked up a Remington I was sold. After I shot it, I was a lifelong devotee. The Model 12 and the Model 37 developed legions of fans because they did do it for a lot of people. It has/had little or nothing to do with perceived build quality or any such esoterica for the vast majority of buyers. Back in the pre internet era not many outside the trade ever even thought about that stuff. Winchester themselves probably shone the light bright on that for the first time with their 1200/1400 series. Other than a few inexpensive SxSs with soft internals, no one had ever worried much about the internals of an American repeater whether it said Winchester, Remington, or J.C. Higgins on it.
Manufacturing methods and metallurgical improvements wrought during the 1940s brought about the demise of the Model 12 and 37. The Remington 11-48 ushered in the era of truly interchangeable parts and no hand fitting required for reliable operation and excellent longevity. The 870 was simply a manually operated 11-48. It did not have the very close tolerances because gunmakers had learned you didn't really need those on a repeater. The AK-47 is perhaps the epitome on this design and build methodology. They went on to make many changes and improvements to the semi autos, but the 870 has been virtually unchanged in forever, because it works just fine. The same could be said of the Mossberg 500 after Remington's patent expired and they added the second action bar. The perception of most people that you could get just as good a gun for less money did them in.
In the current era of extreme pursuit of low cost and little concern for aesthetics either inside or out, they would never have a chance. Remington probably sells 50 or 100 Expresses for every Wingmaster. If it wasn't for the commonality of parts and design the Wingmaster would almost certainly be history, too.
Manufacturing methods and metallurgical improvements wrought during the 1940s brought about the demise of the Model 12 and 37. The Remington 11-48 ushered in the era of truly interchangeable parts and no hand fitting required for reliable operation and excellent longevity. The 870 was simply a manually operated 11-48. It did not have the very close tolerances because gunmakers had learned you didn't really need those on a repeater. The AK-47 is perhaps the epitome on this design and build methodology. They went on to make many changes and improvements to the semi autos, but the 870 has been virtually unchanged in forever, because it works just fine. The same could be said of the Mossberg 500 after Remington's patent expired and they added the second action bar. The perception of most people that you could get just as good a gun for less money did them in.
In the current era of extreme pursuit of low cost and little concern for aesthetics either inside or out, they would never have a chance. Remington probably sells 50 or 100 Expresses for every Wingmaster. If it wasn't for the commonality of parts and design the Wingmaster would almost certainly be history, too.
stuckinthe60s
New member
and it continues today.
people will buy hugulu's before a CSM.
people will buy hugulu's before a CSM.
edward hogan
New member
Traded my uncle a 12ga Stevens 311 for a Full choke 50's model 12 20ga. Had a cut down stock. Replaced it with an orig got from Oshman's Hou d owntown store gunsmith ops in the basement.
I could break 23 shooting regulation trap with that gun. But I did sell it.
I did find a nice user 12ga from the 20s with the corn husk forend. Well used but $225 who could pass that by? Still like the heavier width 50s era 13 or 14 line forend. Had one I bought on Ebay til my daughter did some cleaning. Still hoping to find it.
Model 12s are joy to shoot and they are breakdowns which is just that much more a plus. My grandfather had a 97 with the cool external hammer, but dad said the gun always jammed. It was a 16ga, like the old man's Stevens 311 which I still have....
Recently bought a Hastings rifled slug barrel for my 870 w/cantilever rail for scope. I like the 870 express combo I bought in 90, but a 20ga model 12 is a thing of joy for sure!
I could break 23 shooting regulation trap with that gun. But I did sell it.
I did find a nice user 12ga from the 20s with the corn husk forend. Well used but $225 who could pass that by? Still like the heavier width 50s era 13 or 14 line forend. Had one I bought on Ebay til my daughter did some cleaning. Still hoping to find it.
Model 12s are joy to shoot and they are breakdowns which is just that much more a plus. My grandfather had a 97 with the cool external hammer, but dad said the gun always jammed. It was a 16ga, like the old man's Stevens 311 which I still have....
Recently bought a Hastings rifled slug barrel for my 870 w/cantilever rail for scope. I like the 870 express combo I bought in 90, but a 20ga model 12 is a thing of joy for sure!
FrankenMauser
New member
My Model 12 needs to be rebuilt. Otherwise, I would still shoot it regularly.
'24 or '29 (can't remember which), 12 ga, 28" full choke. Pretty much worn out before my grandfather bought it in the late '50s or early '60s, and he continued using it until the barrel wouldn't lock into the receiver any longer and the bolt wasn't locking up properly. But, it will be rebuilt eventually, and given another 75 years.
I prefer my Model 25 over the 12, however. 1952, 12 ga, 28" full choke (worn to improved cylinder).
Lighter. Simpler. Cheaper. Fewer parts. But just as good as a Model 12.
...And not as worn out. Mine has minor issues, but it's still usable.
'24 or '29 (can't remember which), 12 ga, 28" full choke. Pretty much worn out before my grandfather bought it in the late '50s or early '60s, and he continued using it until the barrel wouldn't lock into the receiver any longer and the bolt wasn't locking up properly. But, it will be rebuilt eventually, and given another 75 years.
I prefer my Model 25 over the 12, however. 1952, 12 ga, 28" full choke (worn to improved cylinder).
Lighter. Simpler. Cheaper. Fewer parts. But just as good as a Model 12.
...And not as worn out. Mine has minor issues, but it's still usable.
I, too, am a Rem 870 devotee but to compare it with a Win Model 12 is like apples to oranges insofar as handling is concerned.
In 69-70 I had a job pulling/setting skeet trap at Roberts' Shooting Park (on Roberts' Dairy Farm: we used to have to pick up good used clays from the alfalfa field in front of the traps after the manure spreader came through earlier that day) in Elkhorn NE for $1.50/hr (most fun job I ever had; it is now the site of a Community College thanks to the extreme expansion of Omaha).
A co-worker there had both a Model 12 20 gauge short barrel with a Cutts Comp (man, was that ever LOUD!) and a Model 42 .410, and I shot skeet with both of them many times before I got my 870 12 gauge skeet gun. The 12 and the 42 just feel differently in the hands compared to the 870, but I very much liked both Winchesters. I just didn't have the money for a Model 12.
I have never owned a Model 12, but my Dad had one dating from ~1932 that my Grandfather won in a punch-card game in Detroit back then. It was a 16 gauge 28" full choke, field grade with the corncob fore end, and had seen plenty of use judging by the worn bluing on the gun. Dad was a Herter's catalog fanatic in the 60's-70's and ordered a Belgian Blue kit (hot water bath) from them and also ordered a blond birds-eye maple buttstock and fore end from either Bishop or Reinhart Fajen. One long summer afternoon he and I reblued the gun over a double-burner Coleman campstove in 1970, after he had previously polished all of the metal. He had already sanded down/finished the wood. He was proud as punch with the finished product.
I came home on leave (USAF) in 1972 just before opening day of pheasant season, and my Dad offered the Model 12 16 for me to use, so I got a resident hunting license that afternoon and off we went the next morning to a 2,000 acre milo/corn farm in David City NE. The longest shot I ever connected with was using that Model 12 16 gauge using his favorite Remington high brass Express #7-1/2 loads. It was paced off at 60+ yards on a rooster (classic skeet station #4 low house bird, only nearly 3 times the distance). I outshot my Dad, 2 birds to none, but he was using his newest favorite Ruger Red Label 12 gauge, but he never could shoot it well. He was getting older and I think he liked carrying it in the field better than the longer guns.
To finish, although I like the 870 better, there is nothing at all wrong with the Model 12. As Virginian has stated, the Model 12's demise came about because it was no longer economical to produce.
https://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=104635&d=1489282719
That, sir, is a closet queen and should remain so forever.
I don't care if it is not a factory original: if I owned it I would only show it to select friends, and then, maybe... Beautiful!!
I have enjoyed every post on this thread, probably because all of us here that remember shooting/owning a Model 12/42 are pretty much long in the tooth like me.
Thanks to all for a great conversation!
Jim
In 69-70 I had a job pulling/setting skeet trap at Roberts' Shooting Park (on Roberts' Dairy Farm: we used to have to pick up good used clays from the alfalfa field in front of the traps after the manure spreader came through earlier that day) in Elkhorn NE for $1.50/hr (most fun job I ever had; it is now the site of a Community College thanks to the extreme expansion of Omaha).
A co-worker there had both a Model 12 20 gauge short barrel with a Cutts Comp (man, was that ever LOUD!) and a Model 42 .410, and I shot skeet with both of them many times before I got my 870 12 gauge skeet gun. The 12 and the 42 just feel differently in the hands compared to the 870, but I very much liked both Winchesters. I just didn't have the money for a Model 12.
I have never owned a Model 12, but my Dad had one dating from ~1932 that my Grandfather won in a punch-card game in Detroit back then. It was a 16 gauge 28" full choke, field grade with the corncob fore end, and had seen plenty of use judging by the worn bluing on the gun. Dad was a Herter's catalog fanatic in the 60's-70's and ordered a Belgian Blue kit (hot water bath) from them and also ordered a blond birds-eye maple buttstock and fore end from either Bishop or Reinhart Fajen. One long summer afternoon he and I reblued the gun over a double-burner Coleman campstove in 1970, after he had previously polished all of the metal. He had already sanded down/finished the wood. He was proud as punch with the finished product.
I came home on leave (USAF) in 1972 just before opening day of pheasant season, and my Dad offered the Model 12 16 for me to use, so I got a resident hunting license that afternoon and off we went the next morning to a 2,000 acre milo/corn farm in David City NE. The longest shot I ever connected with was using that Model 12 16 gauge using his favorite Remington high brass Express #7-1/2 loads. It was paced off at 60+ yards on a rooster (classic skeet station #4 low house bird, only nearly 3 times the distance). I outshot my Dad, 2 birds to none, but he was using his newest favorite Ruger Red Label 12 gauge, but he never could shoot it well. He was getting older and I think he liked carrying it in the field better than the longer guns.
To finish, although I like the 870 better, there is nothing at all wrong with the Model 12. As Virginian has stated, the Model 12's demise came about because it was no longer economical to produce.
https://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=104635&d=1489282719
That, sir, is a closet queen and should remain so forever.
I don't care if it is not a factory original: if I owned it I would only show it to select friends, and then, maybe... Beautiful!!
I have enjoyed every post on this thread, probably because all of us here that remember shooting/owning a Model 12/42 are pretty much long in the tooth like me.
Thanks to all for a great conversation!
Jim
A used, field grade 30" full choke 12ga Model 12 was my 16th birthday present. Bought at an auction, with another guy bidding against us. He dropped out at $125, and my Dad breathed a sigh of relief. Gave me the money, and I went and paid for it, and was carrying it back to our seats when I passes the guy who had been bidding against us.
He asked me what the gun was. I read from the barrel, "Winchester Model of 1912".
"I'll give you $200 for it!"
"No, thank you, sir!"
That was nearly a half century ago, now, and I've still got the gun and it still works wonderfully well. There's prettier pump guns, and more modern slicker working pump guns, but to me, there is no FINER pump gun made, ever.
FrankenMauser, there is a lot of adjustment possible in the model 12 receiver, and often "worn out" ones can be restored to serviceability. However, I don't personally know anyone still living who has the skills to do it right. I used to know a couple but they've passed on now. I'm sure there's still some, but they aren't common like they once were.
Turnbull does excellent work, I've seen some of their work on rifles and pistols, and I doubt you will find any better. They aren't cheap, but they can make it look and work like the day it first left the factory.
Probably cost more than the gun will bring on the market today, but everything isn't about current market value., or shouldn't be...
He asked me what the gun was. I read from the barrel, "Winchester Model of 1912".
"I'll give you $200 for it!"
"No, thank you, sir!"
That was nearly a half century ago, now, and I've still got the gun and it still works wonderfully well. There's prettier pump guns, and more modern slicker working pump guns, but to me, there is no FINER pump gun made, ever.
FrankenMauser, there is a lot of adjustment possible in the model 12 receiver, and often "worn out" ones can be restored to serviceability. However, I don't personally know anyone still living who has the skills to do it right. I used to know a couple but they've passed on now. I'm sure there's still some, but they aren't common like they once were.
Turnbull does excellent work, I've seen some of their work on rifles and pistols, and I doubt you will find any better. They aren't cheap, but they can make it look and work like the day it first left the factory.
Probably cost more than the gun will bring on the market today, but everything isn't about current market value., or shouldn't be...
FrankenMauser
New member
Yep.
The big problems with this one are:
The adjuster sleeve threads are worn to the point of no longer engaging reliably.
The slide bar "cam" (?) is worn down to nothing.
And, most importantly, the action was still fired considerably after being worn out, so the bolt has piened the slot in the top of the receiver badly enough that the receiver is toast. It needs to be: A) Scrapped. Or, B) TIG welded, re-machined, and rehardened.
Rebuilding the shotgun on another receiver is a perfectly reasonably option, but not one that I will entertain.
I've been trying to find the right 'smith for the job for a few years, and one of my brothers was on the same mission before then. I had a few good leads and sent "small jobs" to those gunsmiths as a bit of a job interview. None were satisfactory. (One of them cut two dovetails in a barrel, screwing up the alignment between the two by FIFTEEN degrees.)
Not long ago, I decided that my brother's decision, that it was Turnbull or the scrap heap, was the correct one.
It'll be expensive.
But, as you said, there's much more at play here than market value.
I'd rather have THAT Model 12 in my possession - whether non-functional and nearly worthless, or restored for a pretty penny - than any other Model 12 or whatever monetary value it may be worth.
I shoot a Frankenstein 20ga model 12 my brother gave me last Christmas. Short 1927 barrel 24" w/vintage Polychoke, bored for 2-3/4" shells, on a 1934 action. Not pretty, but a very handy, light weight, straight shooting little gun. Action is slick as can be and lightening fast. Will be toting in on our land where it's sure to be more than up to the task of knocking down a few of the resident grouse, squirrel and cottontails. They really don't make them like that anymore.
FrankenMauser
New member
Model 12s feel like tools.
Model 25s feel like they have a soul.
Model 25s feel like they have a soul.
stuckinthe60s
New member
the m12 is one of those guns that just fits.
btw...im returning to dial up soon and may not be able to post here much. this site doesnt like using old browsers on ie7. ie8 wont work on dial up, so....such is life.
btw...im returning to dial up soon and may not be able to post here much. this site doesnt like using old browsers on ie7. ie8 wont work on dial up, so....such is life.