Who should a business sell a handgun to?

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GaryH

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I live in Ft Worth, Tx. There are several Mexican gangs in the area.

I was in a pawn shop a few weeks ago looking at handguns. A hispanic dude comes in, looks in the counter and tells the clerk that he wants the four Glocks he has in the showcase. He didn't take the time to look at them. He didn't even bother to ask how much they were. He just said that he wanted to buy all of them.

That makes me wonder why the pawnbroker didn't take a few minutes to qualify his customer before selling the four Glocks. I did get the license number of the pickup truck he was driving, and I gave it to my neighbor's son who is an FBI agent.

I don't know if anything will come of it, but with the amount of weapons that are crossing the border there should be some people considering how to slow it down.
 
It is my understanding that 4 guns would require four FFL Forms 4473. Those take at least a couple of minutes each to fill out. Also, proof of residency in the state (or continuous state) is required. Violation of any of those can land both the buyer and seller in Federal Court, prison time is possible.

What is the status of the Brady Background Check currently?

Also, I have heard that anyone buying more than one handgun at a time gets copies of their FFL Forms 4473 forwarded to the government. (Normally, the seller keeps them filed.)

Lost Sheep
 
A business can sell a handgun to whomever they want provided they comply with the law. From the post it appears the forms were not completed which would violate the law, however I am not a lawyer.
 
GaryH said:
That makes me wonder why the pawnbroker didn't take a few minutes to qualify his customer before selling the four Glocks.
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Qualify? The buyer didn't complete form 4473? The dealer didn't perform the required background check and observe the required waiting period?

If these things weren't done then a crime was certainly committed.

Lost Sheep said:
It is my understanding that 4 guns would require four FFL Forms 4473.
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There are spaces for 5 firearms on the current form 4473.
 
There is no waiting period in Texas.

So a Hispanic guy bought guns in Texas at a gun shop? Good thing you contacted the FBI.

Today I went to the store and bought some bread and four cans of chile powder. Please don't call the police. We were just making chile and the powder was 1/2 off.
 
The last step in the process are the FFL dealers. They have the final authority on making the sale. If the dealers (whether a pawn shop or LGS, etc.) determine that they don't like something about the sale, they can say no, and nothing the customer can do, can force them to make a sale.

The best example, is that Joe Schmo comes into the shop, and says he hates his wife, smells of liquor, and shows a lot of anger. What does the FFL dealer do? The FFL doesn't protect them from civil torts. They could still lose the business in a law suit.

However, just remember what "Fast and Furious" has done.
 
Today I went to the store and bought some bread and four cans of chile powder. Please don't call the police. We were just making chile and the powder was 1/2 off.
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BINGO....what if that person was black, or some other ethnicity? Would that have changed your mind?.............really.....:rolleyes:
 
GaryH said:
I don't know if anything will come of it, but with the amount of weapons that are crossing the border there should be some people considering how to slow it down.
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Write Eric Holder about that when you get a chance. Let us know how that works out for you.

For all anybody knows the Mexican may have been buying those Glocks for his security company. Either the ATF forms were filled out or they weren't.
 
C'mon guys, raise your hand if you don't think that is suspicious activity. How many of you would go into a pawn shop and pay asking price for 4 pistols without inspecting them or haggling? I'd say odds are at least fair that those pistols weren't for him. Buying guns like that in a border state is suspicious, guns going to Mexico is indeed a real phenomenon.

Being of Hispanic origin is of no merit, anyone can buy and sell guns. Turns out I went to school with a guy who may have been doing it. He was not Hispanic.

Now... assuming the proper forms were filled out and he passed a background check and was a citizen and what not; do I think he should be investigated on the basis of buying 4 pistols at one time? Nope. Not sure that constitutes probable cause.
 
There are spaces for 5 firearms on the current form 4473.
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You can attach additional pages as well. In addition to the 4473, the dealer would also be required to fill out a Multiple Handgun Sale report, which is also shared with the local sheriff's department.

How many of you would go into a pawn shop and pay asking price for 4 pistols without inspecting them or haggling?
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Ummm...me? I once walked into a pawn/hardware shop and saw five somewhat scare Smith & Wesson revolvers in great condition. They were from a recent estate sale, and the proprietor had them marked far lower than market value.

I mentioned that the prices were a bit low, and he grumbled, "I'm not comin' down on 'em." Fine. I took all five.

I might have looked a bit scruffy, as it was my day off. Should the police have been called?
 
There is also a separate report that has to be submitted by the FFL when any buyer purchases two or more handguns within a set period (don't remember if it's 5, 7 or 10 days). The 4473 stays in the gun shop but the multiple purchase report goes to the BATFE. If they want to follow up on it, it's in their ballpark.
 
What was it George Bernad Shaw said in his play Major Barbara.

The arms merchant sells to all regardless of creed, nationality or political position. The merchant must sell unless the purchaser is a prohibited person. It does not, however, preclude the merchant from providing information to the appropriate LEO agency.

Had he refused to sell "to the hispanic gang looking dude", the business could have been sued for violation of the EEOC regulations.
 
How many of you would go into a pawn shop and pay asking price for 4 pistols without inspecting them or haggling?

Ummm...me? I once walked into a pawn/hardware shop and saw five somewhat scare Smith & Wesson revolvers in great condition. They were from a recent estate sale, and the proprietor had them marked far lower than market value.

I mentioned that the prices were a bit low, and he grumbled, "I'm not comin' down on 'em." Fine. I took all five.

I might have looked a bit scruffy, as it was my day off. Should the police have been called?
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You noticed they were in great condition, you must have looked them over a little? Didn't check timing or cylinder play or anything? From a recent estate sale... sounds like you knew a bit more about them than the guy in the original post. Your situation is not the situation that was described in the original post. And regardless, I never said the police should have been called in either case. I don't believe they should have. I'm saying if I had seen the behavior mentioned in the original post, and it happened just as described in the post (which granted may be a big if), my eyebrows would have gone up.
 
A dealer is in business to SELL. C'mon, this was in TEXAS. If a dealer hesitated or refused to make a sale to everyone Hispanic, they wouldn't be selling any guns, they'd be in court all day long defending themselves. Be realistic. In Texas 38% of the population is Hispanic. In New Mexico it's 47%.
 
Glocks aren't blued.
Most owners never disassemble them.
What was asking price?
"and nothing the customer can do, can force them to make a sale."
Having spent some time south of the border recently I can tell you there is. Cartels like Dewalt just as much as they like Colt and I personally fear Dewalt more.
 
C'mon guys, raise your hand if you don't think that is suspicious activity. How many of you would go into a pawn shop and pay asking price for 4 pistols without inspecting them or haggling? I'd say odds are at least fair that those pistols weren't for him. Buying guns like that in a border state is suspicious, guns going to Mexico is indeed a real phenomenon.
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Who is to say they were not in there on a different day and discussed pricing and checking out the guns?
 
I am not sure he filled out paperwork. I left before the transaction was completed, but I would bet the papers were filed. I have bought guns there and filled out paperwork. My question is why anyone would not be suspicious of someone, Mexican...black...asian....white....or whatever.... buying guns in that quantity without inspecting them first given the problem there seems to be with US purchased guns ending up in the hands of the drug cartels.
 
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