Who says cops can't shoot?

The pistol qualification course is designed to pass LEs not fail them. In today's job market good officers are hard to come by. When I lived in Atlanta I worked with several PDs. The common thread was 99% of the guys did not practice. You would see them hit the practice range a week before qualification.
The sad fact was my wife could out shoot all of them. Of all the guys I worked with only two practiced as if their life depended on it. I would rate the two guys as a high D or low C IPSC shooter.
The reason you never see LEs at either IDPA or IPSC matches is two fold. One they can't shoot and ego. There is a 12 year old girl that shoots IDPA with us that can out shoot 80% of them. Talk about bruised egos. Most of these guys would need an IV of testosterone.
One of the Hoover PD training officer came to our recent IDPA State Championship match just to watch. Was he shocked. He never realized how much better civilian shooters were than his own men.
Another problem I have with the typical LE training is all targets are shot from a static position. LEs are not taught to move and shoot.
The BGs are getting smarter. They shoot at the head, thigh and groin areas. No vests there. Get the Officer down then finish him off.
 
Joe D, that is an excellent idea - inviting police to IPDA/IPSC matches (particularly ones that have at least a few very high-level shooters) to simply observe.

Although thinking about it, it could go one of three ways; either they think "Hey these civilian shooters are really good, and I need to start practicing more", "Hey these civilian shooters are really good, perhaps I should support CCW laws more", or "Hey these civilian shooters are really good, I need to keep them out of my precinct."
 
I suspect that their attitude would be more like "Sure they can hit a piece of paper that isn't shooting back but that's not real life."
 
Old Shooter is right; if someone was coming to rescue me, I'd prefer it was someone who was pretty good at shooting, but who knew how to face the potential danger, to an IPSC Grand Master.
One of the better shooters in my area is a cop (top ten at USPSA Nats, a couple of Area championships), and he "uses" his position as a department trainer to attend shooting schools and "conferences" on the department's tab. He becomes a better shooter, and can make his officers better shooters.
There is a big civilian and law enforcement charity 3-gun match in our area, and while I wasn't too impressed with the shooting abilities of some of the LEOs, or being swept with a few muzzles in the parking lot, I wouldn't want to have to employ my skill in the places where they go.
 
Hinting at a fallacy...

Rhetorical question:

Who would you rather have rescue you from drowning: a lifeguard-trained average swimmer, or a lifeguard-trained Olympic-class swimmer?

-z
 
The problem is most are not "pretty good at shooting".
Igloo, I have even offered to pay their entry fee just to get them shooting. I think it is more of a macho/ego thing. I hope the Hoover TO starts shooting with us.
What I have seen in the past is a LE will shoot one IDPA/IPSC match and never come back. Most usually finish at the bottom of the list. Even telling them before hand that they should not expect to do well seems to have little bearing on future match participation. A typical new civilian shooter views his low score as an opportunity to improve, practices, and returns for more matches. Not so in the LE community. I think the ego/macho bruising is too much to bear, especially at the hands of a civilian/woman shooter.
 
F-350Lawman hit the nail right on the head. Today, a cop can best be described as "a man of many hats". We play the role of counseler, pastor, auto mechanic, locksmith, wild animal tamer, utility repairman, etc. etc. etc. etc. You name it, we do it. It used to be we recruited people as big as gorillas, with the same mentality. Today, it's what's upstairs that counts. Far better to think and talk your way out of a situation than shoot your way out. Other than on the range or dispatching an injured or sick animal, most cops will never fire their weapons in the line of duty. But when it does happen, a cool head and experience is every bit as important as shooting ability, if not more so. Most police shootings occur at very close range and are over in seconds, so being an IPSC grand master really isn't necessary. A cool head and a survivor's attitude is. Still, because the service pistol is the final option and because human lives hang in the balance, it is important that every LEO be reasonably proficient. Our dept. qualifies twice yearly and our course of fire is one of the most difficult going. If you can't qualify, you can't carry, and that means a desk job until you can. My watch is made up of a bunch of avid deer hunters, so I've never had that problem with my people. We have a few that moan and groan when re-qualification rolls around, and a few that chomp at the bit. Most fall somewhere in the middle, and I suspect that's the case with most departments.
 
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Olympic swimmer or average swimmer...That would assume that an IDPA or IPSC expert shooter was used to having someone shoot back or at least was capable of taking a life.
 
Zak

For those arguing against having more skills at one's disposal, what exactly is your point?
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I don't think anyone's against having more skills. Hell, I wish I WAS an IPSC Grand Master! And maybe someday, if I keep working at it... in a thousand years or so.... :D

Only pointing out that to be a good cop, you don't have to be a grand master (even though you just might be a little bit better one if you were. Then again, maybe not. ;) )
 
Interestingly enough, I was talking to a local LEO the other day about coming and shooting with our fledgling IDPA club. He had never heard of IDPA, so I described it to him and told him that he was more than welcome to come with his duty gear. He was obviously into guns and shooting as I ran into him at the local gun shop talking to the owner and admiring his new rifle.

Anyway, he proceeds to tell me that most of the officers in his department shy away from ANY extra training or competition in fear of it being used against them in the event of a shooting! :confused: I told him that I believed that a good lawyer could argue that the man that took the time to be proficient with his weapon was safer than the man that didn't. My two cents.

Further along in the conversation I asked if he carried a gun off duty. His reply was "I don't go the the bathroom, church, or ANYWHERE (emphasis his) without my gun"!

Scared to leave home without it, scared to train with it. :confused:

He was a very pleasant fellow and didn't seem to have an ego problem. He also seemed interested in shooting with us before he left. So hopefully he'll be out this weekend and we can work on that training attitude.
 
I probably need to clarify one point. I do take my hat off to the guys and gals that put their life on the line everyday as LEs.
I just wish they could shoot better. Might save their life one day.
 
Old Shooter said:
I suspect that their attitude would be more like "Sure they can hit a piece of paper that isn't shooting back but that's not real life."
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And you're probably right. I wonder if it would help to point out to them that while the IPSC champions might have their competition accuracy and speed reduced by stress, it is unlikely that an officer that barely qualifies every six months (but handles stress well) is unlikely to shoot better than their range shooting because of stress.

Out of curiosity, what is an average qualification standard for state-and-smaller law enforcement?
 
Two words: Politics and Liability. And just like politics, the issues... and "solutions" change with the wind. We used to keep records of scores, based on the PPC 600 point system. Then some genius lawyer somewhere said if you can shoot in the 500's, you could have shot to wound. The argument went back and forth, along with the lawsuits. So, the "solution" was to grade strictly based on a pass/fail basis. No scores are recorded. We are also no longer permitted to wear our sharpshooter/expert/master medals either (previously earned). But our major defense is in how we're trained. Simply put, we are not trained to shoot to wound. We are trained to shoot for center mass. Thus the liability shifts from the individual officer to the Dept. As long as you're within dept. policy and training methods, you have a solid defense. Also, the emphasis used to be tight groups in the X ring. Now it's speed, tactics, use of cover, and judgement (shoot/don't shoot decisions). Our objective is multiple rounds in multiple targets in minimum time and in center mass. The course of fire went from bullseye to PPC to IPSC style to unconventional variations of everything. The state standard applies to every dept. in that state, but some dept's go far above that. Along with night shoots where the only light for sight alignment comes from the muzzle flash of the previous shot, we do the "wounded man" shoot, both weak hand and strong. A mag is loaded randomly with live rounds and duds. One hand goes in your pocket and stays there. On the "misfire", you have to jack the slide and chamber a new round by placing the front of the slide by the muzzle either against your gunbelt or edge of your boot and pushing the frame forward. I admit that one make's me a little nervous, having the muzzle that close to my body. It all depends on the range officer. He can set up his own course of fire, however exotic, as long as minimum state standards are met. We've got a great range officer who tries to make it as close to the real world as possible. One thing he does that has done a lot towards encouraging non-shooters or "ho-hum" shooters to get involved is our fun shoot. After each qualification course, the steel plates, bowling pins, etc. come out. No scores are kept, but the top shooters do get a nice trophy and everybody has a good time.
As far as cops not wanting to shoot, you have to remember that after about 5 years on this job, most guys want to go home and forget everything dealing with the job, including guns. Every cop with any time on at all has a lot of memories. Most of them aren't pleasant. I personally don't associate range time with the streets, but neither do I watch "Cops" or other cop/crime shows on TV. :( :mad: :barf:
 
I have shot with several of the local departments and Sheriff's Office and most of them do quite well. I might add we have a large per centage of law enforcement officers shooting IPSC with us locally. If a person is intertested in competition shooting, they will shoot regardless of occupation.

Like Zak, I too wonder just exactly why so many folks seem to delight in bashing the competition world when it comes to shooting for defensive purposes. Good grief, if you take a decent IPSC shooter and make their skills "reality based" you have the best of both worlds.
 
Walk a mile with me.....

I'm a cop who shoots Bullseye and High Power with a stronger leaning towards the High Power. I'm also the department's range officer. In a perfect world we would all be better shooters but here's the deal.

I would like to give the guys/gals more range time. But not everyone works 9 to 5 and on range days and it cost us over time. Some are unhappy because I broke into their sleep time. Not everyone has weekends off to go shooting matches. I have to take a day off or days off if a 2 day match to go shoot a match and I only get so many days off in a year. Plus I get off at 6 am....I can't even get a good nights sleep before going to a match. Then there's drive time.....need I go on?

I'm a gun guy at heart but on my days off I'm burned to a crisp and have other things to do for the wife and range time is a low priorty even when I need practice for a pending match. But I do love to shoot so I take 3 of 4 weekends off during the season. It hurts the shift as that leaves us 1 guy short. Where does a guy draw the line?

I also instruct EVOC....thats for the driving part of the our job. In the perfect world we wold also be better drivers. But again, over time and someone is loosing out on the sleep. (like me) Most don't mind coming in on a day off as the running the course as it's a great deal of fun but you can only do so much.

You guys like to moan and grown about how bad of shots cops are. Walk a mile in my shoes before you judge.
 
Personally I would prefer it if you guys didn't talk about the subject.

If they find out they aren't so good, I'll have a hard time getting them to shoot against the wife. That would seriously cut into my beer fund.

Sam :D
 
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