Who REALLY pays income taxes?

The Rich taking food out of the mouths of the Poor.

There was a recent news story from California that rich folks were causing poor people to go hungry. It seems that even rich people are cutting back on spending due to taxes, economy, etc. As a result, they are not renting as many limos as they did in the past. So limo drivers that used to work 5-6 days a week are now working 2-3 days a week. They are complaining that they cannot afford rent and food and demand that rich people start spending their money again.

It also seems that rich people aren't buy as many expensive boats as they once did. The folks that build boats for a living are getting laid off as a result.

So does "taxing" the rich more than everyone else help the country? Guess it depends on where your paycheck comes from.
 
We stigmatise trade schools by insisting that every smart lad get a classical, liberal arts, university education, and only directing behaviour problems and the slow elsewhere.

Providing the option of a fine and rigorous technical education to kids interested in it, the kids who might go on to engineering anyway, would only cut out a lot of the fluff that might be of little interest to them anyway.
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Most definitely, and I'll be the first to say that the financial aid system we have for higher education as it is is pretty deeply flawed. With six-year graduation rates at most four-year schools hovering at about 50%, I figure every kid who is getting lackluster grades or going more than a semester or so undeclared while pulling any real tax-backed funding (anything but unsubsidized loans) should be kicked to the curb (and quickly). I've seen plenty of kids partying on (at last partially) my dime or wasting money (and time) getting an underwater basketweaving degree that will, if they're lucky, get them the head cashier job at Target.

I don't see higher education from an entirely utilitarian point of view, but at the same time I think the enriching value on society of having quasi-intelligent people get literature degrees is often overstated.

Then again, I know a lot of kids whose financial situation (or rather, their parents') would have precluded them attending college before they were forty (if ever)...yet the degrees they are pursuing now (engineering, specifically) will have contributed quite a bit more to both society and our tax coffers in the time between when they graduate and when they would have been able to pursue an education.

I think the expansion (or rather, restoration) of both our vocational programs at the high school level and an emphasis and expansion of our technical schools would definitely be a good idea. I just don't think doing away with the entire financial aid system is also part of that good idea.

I am not technically proficient, a typical number-phobe, but all reading Beowulf in highschool did for me was teach me that I didn't like reading Beowulf.
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Amen!
 
Higher education does not necessarily or even usually equal higher paying jobs. For example, I can’t find people to give $40K+/yr entry level machinist jobs to because parents, the government and most especially teacher’s unions tell all kids that they need to go to college and get a degree, so they’ll be more successful. So the schools lower the standards to accommodate all these kids, many of whom should have entered vocational school at age 14, and what we have now are a bunch of not-so-smart people holding a useless degree. They’re 25 years old and have never worked with their hands, they still can’t read, write or do the relatively simple math required. Their best prospect for employment is often in the service industry at $20K/yr and the true taxpayers have paid dearly for this travesty, not only in dollars wasted, but also in lower standards of living, outsourced jobs and lost opportunities for entrepreneurs.
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For the record, I do consider a trade school to be higher education. Anything above a high school diploma counts. Welders, machinists, ASE certified mechanics, CCNAs and the like are all people who have higher education yet may not have a single college credit on their transcript.

The point is that a high school education will rarely ever get someone a 40k/yr job, at least not for a long time. One can start working right out of high school and chances are it'll take them a decade to make that kind of money. Having some kind of higher education - whether it's a degree or a certification in a valuable skill - is important.

As for lowering standards in college, I agree. Fortunately in some of the more important fields people who don't cut it are ostracized by their peers and don't get anywhere important enough to screw up the field.
 
The point is that a high school education will rarely ever get someone a 40k/yr job, at least not for a long time. One can start working right out of high school and chances are it'll take them a decade to make that kind of money.
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I've been looking at people 18-20 years old for the entry level machinist jobs I have and I re-interviewed a guy yesterday that's about 20. He looks the most promising yet and is beating out people with liberal arts and computer science degrees.

I know it's rare, but the kid's starting salary will be ~$40K/yr.

Having some kind of higher education - whether it's a degree or a certification in a valuable skill - is important.
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Yes... too bad the government doesn't take this seriously. People always talking about manufacturing jobs going overseas, but not doing much more about it than complaining.
 
The problem with owning an Acura and a Honda instead of a Ford is that I won't be able to teach my son about major automotive repair in the way that my father taught me.
 
I've been looking at people 18-20 years old for the entry level machinist jobs I have and I re-interviewed a guy yesterday that's about 20. He looks the most promising yet and is beating out people with liberal arts and computer science degrees.

I know it's rare, but the kid's starting salary will be ~$40K/yr.
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I hope he works out for ya. :D

Out of curiosity, what kind of machining is the job for?
Yes... too bad the government doesn't take this seriously. People always talking about manufacturing jobs going overseas, but not doing much more about it than complaining.
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Agreed.

I remember in the late 90s when all computer companies and internet service providers hired computer geeks to man their phones. We were the guys that could actually solve problems over the phone, that actually knew the inner workings of this stuff.

Now in order to save money they'll give the job to either a $8/hr ding dong that just reads off a list - yes, I already turned it off and turned it back on again, no I'm not doing it again! - or a guy in another country working for a fraction of that despite his own masters in CIS. So now the entry level nerds can't get these jobs that would normally led to the more lucrative one and end up working retail or service which saturates the employee pool and means fewer people have the money to spend on shopping and eating out.

Shouldn't companies selling products and services in America have a desire to do business in America? Employing more people means the economy as a whole is better which means more people are able to buy their trinkets and other crap.

Why is the block for the Corvette's engine still made in Mexico? Why are most of Ford and Chevy's cars made by Canadians while the Toyota Tundra is one of the only vehicles on the road designed in America by American engineers and built in American factories with American suppliers solely for the American market?

I don't know if my beliefs qualify as protectionist but sheesh, if we're going to rely on the free market to regulate itself shouldn't we at least make sure everyone has to play by the same rules in order for the market's self-regulating properties to actually work?

Sorry for the tangent but I think our economic woes go far, far beyond simply taxing people with six figure incomes more than the average Joe. I would support a flat percentage rate tax but I think a lot of other issues are higher on the priority list. Until we fix the other problems I highly doubt that allowing the wealthy to pay less is going to help matters much.

edit: yeah, I'm complaining about the jobs overseas, too...but run through your house and find how many essential things you have that are not made overseas.

the computer you're posting on is primarily made with commie chinese labor :p
 
The problem with owning an Acura and a Honda instead of a Ford is that I won't be able to teach my son about major automotive repair in the way that my father taught me.
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Why is that? I've worked on both types and with the exception of having to use imperial over the more logical metric system on a Ford you can teach your son the exact same things. :confused:

A new Taurus is going to be just as complex as a new Accord save for the navigation system.
 
I think grymster2007 has it right.

I grew up on a dairy farm in WI and worked for a good number of years in comercial construction, got married, went back to school and got an engineering degree. Now I have an engineering job and for all of the education that I have nothing taught me how to work like the farm. I also have a lot of respect for the "uneducated";) guys in the shop. I swear most of them have forgotten more than I'll ever know. Education is not the key to the problem, people knowing and being willing to actually work for a living is.
 
Out of curiosity, what kind of machining is the job for?
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R&D work. Everything from small engine lathes and Bridgeports to large pipe lathes and vertical turret lathes. CNC vertical machining centers, horizontal boring mills, live-tooling turning centers and wire and sinker EDM. Components go from sub-mm size with micron-scale features of extreme precision to stuff the size of a Volkswagen. Materials from aluminums to stainless steels, brass, bronze, copper, Glidcop, titaniam, invar, inconel..... and on and on and on. I require all the machinists to be proficient in CAD and CAM, write their own programs and be conversant in geometric dimensioning and tolerancing.

It's good work. No production - ever. Brand new challenges each day. Good pay, great benefits and I have a large travel/training budget and spend it liberally to teach the crews anything that will improve our operations.

Too bad it's so hard to find people to hire!

Edit: to try and keep the thread on track... hopefully in a few years this kid I hire will be paying his fair share of the taxes. Gotta go... I have a half-dozen or so people counting on me paying Uncle Sam their share.
 
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I remember in the late 90s when all computer companies and internet service providers hired computer geeks to man their phones. We were the guys that could actually solve problems over the phone, that actually knew the inner workings of this stuff.

Now in order to save money they'll give the job to either a $8/hr ding dong that just reads off a list - yes,
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Back in the early 80s when I started buying computers, I talked to the sales people at several places and they told me the companies didn't want sales people that knew anything about computers. If they knew computers, they would spend more time helping the customers with problems than selling computers and that wasn't their job. If you needed help, they wanted you to pay for telephone tech support.

Fast forward a little and computer companies such as Gateway began selling PCs over the telephone and one of their selling points was free tech support. After awhile, this gets expensive, so they start hiring less knowledgeable people who have a list of possible problems and solutions, always ending in re-installing your operating system. At this point, they progressed from helping you with free online/telephone support to wanting to sell you on-site support like the Geek Squad.

In other words, they want to sell you something, not help you. They don't make money helping you.
 
"The problem with owning an Acura and a Honda instead of a Ford is that I won't be able to teach my son about major automotive repair in the way that my father taught me."

I was born in 1950 and learned to work on cars because, well, because they broke down a lot and wore out fast.

You think not having to do major automotive repair is a bad thing?

:)

John
 
no comparison

"The problem with owning an Acura and a Honda instead of a Ford is that I won't be able to teach my son about major automotive repair in the way that my father taught me." mvpel I'm an old school auto shop teacher. I enter the auto trade at 15 and at 26 began teaching auto mechanics. The biggest reason you will never teach your kids auto mechanics is related to the technology changes over the years. Unless you work, train and are equipped to diagnose alll the electronics and computer you are just out of luck.

If you believe you can work on a new Ford using your old world knowledge you might be surprised at how little you can do. I know is frustrating to open the hood on a 2008 and wonder what is all this stuff. Then you realise if you do much more than change the oil you just are not equipped to do the job. Repair is a term of the past as almost every component is a unit replacement where the units are only serviceable at some overhaul facility.

I stopped teaching auto mechanic 20 years ago when the school just could not afford to spent thousands with every model year change and the new black box testing units. It just made no sense to continue teaching tune up work when thee is no actual tune up to be done on an new model car. You can not adjust a carb with an emissions tester. Adjust the carb without the testing units and then the emmisions system goes bonkers and idiot lights fill the dash. And the list goes on and on from there.

If you want to teach those things to you kids get a couple of 1950 to 1960 era vehicles and have at it. Working on the oldies can be the fun and excitement for your kids that you remember doing with your dad. I had a model A and a 36 Dodge as project cars for me and my son. A great time for both of us keeping those beast running.
 
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Having some kind of higher education - whether it's a degree or a certification in a valuable skill - is important.

Yes... too bad the government doesn't take this seriously. People always talking about manufacturing jobs going overseas, but not doing much more about it than complaining.
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Not totally true, I relocated across country 2 years ago to help establish a new Construction Trades program at Arizona Western College under a multi-million dollar Federal Grant. The area down here wouldn't support it, we couldn't fill seats with anyone who actually cared, the ones that attended only came for the free money. In most Northern States we would of had people lined up around the building twice for the same program, but down here cheap, unskilled labor is the norm.
Skilled Labor and true craftsman are becoming a thing of the past, it actually goes beyond money and is balanced with self respect, pride in oneself and workmanship. Most people don't understand this today.

The goverment realizes the need, they just can't understand why the programs fail. They don't realize their targeting the wrong people while trying to play the p/c.

I think I'll stop here or I'll cause this thread to close if I continue.

kenny b
 
There was a recent news story from California that rich folks were causing poor people to go hungry. It seems that even rich people are cutting back on spending due to taxes, economy, etc. As a result, they are not renting as many limos as they did in the past. So limo drivers that used to work 5-6 days a week are now working 2-3 days a week. They are complaining that they cannot afford rent and food and demand that rich people start spending their money again.

It also seems that rich people aren't buy as many expensive boats as they once did. The folks that build boats for a living are getting laid off as a result.

So does "taxing" the rich more than everyone else help the country? Guess it depends on where your paycheck comes from
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Excellent post. "Why give the rich a bigger tax cut than the middle class?," it was asked. "The idea is simple," replied trickle down economists. "Give the wealthy a tax cut and they'll reinvest that money back into society and boost the economy. Well folks, once and for all that sophistic reasoning has been killed, cremated, and it's ashes launched into outer space. Apparently, the wealthy are taking their tax cut and keeping it. Send the IRS after them. They've been after the rest of us for too long.
 
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