Who made the first submachine gun?

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44AMP wrote:

In US legal defintion, assault rifles are legally machineguns. The irony of the "Assault Weapons Ban" is that the law did not effect a single assault rifle, only semi-auto guns that just looked like assault rifles.

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To true, which is why, in reasonably polite parlance, the Clinton "Assault Weapons Ban", was, is and remains a POS. Ditto for any/all efforts to reinstate or to reconstitute it, toreauthorize it or to "re" anything with or about it.
 
A MOVE THREAD and a comment - -

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I was remiss in not moving this thread from Rifles to Full Auto previously. I believe it will get more reactions here. Or not. Sorry.


dfariswheel wrote:
Quote:
They first pistol-caliber automatic weapon was the Italian Villar Perosa of 1914. This was the "first" SMG.

This was originally developed for aircraft use, but was adapted for infantry use. This was a double barreled weapon with two vertical magazines.

Actually, it depends on which account you read. The Italian Army probably mounted them on bicycles (!) and motorcycles first, and then on aircraft. Somewhere in the chronology, some enterprising armourer got the idea to split the little double gun, mount a stock on each half, and, Vo-alla, a highly portable pistol caliber machinegun was implemented.

Only time I've ever seen one depicted in movies was in "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade." Sean Connery managed to shoot down his own biplane with a Villar Perosa.

Best,
Johnny
Click to expand...

You can see a Villar Perosa gun mounted on the handlebars of a bicycle if you visit the Indiana War Memorial in Indianapolis. Admission is free but you can't ride away with the bike. The nice police officer at the entrance will have some harsh words with you if you try.
 
It's been quite a while since I saw the movie, but I honestly doubt that they would have put a Villar Perosa in the flying scenes, and I think some of the people here are confusing a dual Lewis mount with the V-P; the V-P is much smaller than the dual Lewis mount, and uses next-to-useless single-stack mags, instead of the drum/pan mags of the Lewis.

Villar-Perosa:

villar_perosa_machinegun.gif



Dual Lewis mount:

twinlewis.jpg
 
If I remember correctly, and this asumes that what I had read was correct, Eugene Stoner, the guy wo designred the thing told the government which propellants to use, which to stay away from, and what would happen with the refles if the wrong propellant was used.

The government didn't listen to Mr. Stoner, and what happened is history, sad history for those who died as a result of weapons that quit working when functioning weapons were needed. There were other problems too, but propellant problems were a biggie.

Not being a gun designer, Oil Refinery Piping Systems were my bag, I've always wondered as to why Stoner opted for the direct impingment system rather than some sort of long or short stroke piston operation method, which would have avoided propellant problems. Stoner has long since departed, so we can't ask him.
 
Edmond:

In the cut away pictures of the MAS rifle I saw, it looked like the gas tube vented to atmosphere, possibly closer to the shooters face than desirable, but that is another matter, and I was looking at an undimensioned picture.

Also, the M-16's "early" problems, some of them, were propellant related. What sort of powder were the French using? Also, how do/did the ID's (inside diameters) of the respective gas tubes compare?

Otherwise, I was not familiar with the MAS rifle, matter of fact, I didn't know that the French had fielded opne. I had seen pictures of what I recall was a MAS rifle, but that was bolt action. Always something to learn.
 
Until beginning of the 70's, 7.5 ammo was loaded with the same powder for 50 years then used ball powder. the 7.62 NATO was loaded with ball powder since day one.
All was calculated to have minimal gas vent near the shooter, hundred of millions of rounds have been shot without problems.
But some people cut 7.5 MAS barrels in US and rechambered to 7.62 NATO hence creating an excess of pressure since the gas is taken closer to the chamber, a very bad move..
 
Wasn't there an American made rifle, right after the turn of the century and before WW1, that was magazine-fed, gas-operated, portable and shot some sort of intermediate size round? It's supposed to on display in some museum in Wyoming, Montana or some place out that way. The people at the museum actually refer to it as "the very first assault rifle." I haven't personally seen it. I've just heard about it. Anybody?
 
Rifleman, you're probably thinking of the Winchester 1905/1907/1910 series; these all followed the same pattern, and even had a certain following in LE circles up through the Depression (after they could get high-cap magazines), but they weren't select-fire.
 
I concure with above poster, i think this question has been answered rather throughly

"They first pistol-caliber automatic weapon was the Italian Villar Perosa of 1914. This was the "first" SMG.

This was originally developed for aircraft use, but was adapted for infantry use. This was a double barreled weapon with two vertical magazines.

German SMG predecessors were the Artillery Luger with shoulder stock and "snail" drum magazine, and the Mauser 1896 pistol with shoulder stock, and modified to fire full-auto.

The first true SMG was the German Schmeisser-designed, Bergman-manufactured MP-18 of 1918.

It's a toss-up for first commercial SMG between the Auto Ordnance Thompson Model 1921, and one of the Spanish-made copies of the MP-18."

this is Dafarriswheel on the first page. (not taking credit in anyway for his post)

yukonkid
 
Sorry, no spanish copy of the MP 18. The spanish republican weapons factory started to make a copy of the MP 28 in 1938. So far, the highest observed serial number is below 3000.
The magazine well was made of bronze.






 
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