Who made the first submachine gun?

Status
Not open for further replies.
F

FirstFreedom

Moderator
I'm a little confused, because I've understood that the Germans are credited with the first (either) submachine gun, or assault rifle (can't remember which), in the late 30's. But if it's a submachine gun, didn't the Thompson beat them to it? Wasn't the Thompson designed in 1927? What's the brief history of firsts in full-auto small arms, both subguns and assault weapons?
 
Last edited:
Actually, the Thompson was first produced commerically in '21, IIRC. It was intended to be a "broom for sweeping trenches" during WWI, but made it inot production a bit late. I am pretty sure it was the first submachine gun.

All this from memory - if someone has documentation, have at it!
 
The first submachine gun was the Model 1918 Bergmab 9mm. It was extensively used in combat by the German sturmtruppen.
 
They first pistol-caliber automatic weapon was the Italian Villar Perosa of 1914. This was the "first" SMG.

This was originally developed for aircraft use, but was adapted for infantry use. This was a double barreled weapon with two vertical magazines.

German SMG predecessors were the Artillery Luger with shoulder stock and "snail" drum magazine, and the Mauser 1896 pistol with shoulder stock, and modified to fire full-auto.

The first true SMG was the German Schmeisser-designed, Bergman-manufactured MP-18 of 1918.

It's a toss-up for first commercial SMG between the Auto Ordnance Thompson Model 1921, and one of the Spanish-made copies of the MP-18.
 
OK, thanks, so pistol-caliber subguns came on the scene in 1914-1921+.

But what is the history then of true assault rifles (not Clinton "AW"s)? Is that what I'm thinking of from the late 30s? Did Germany not have an intermediate-powered cartridge, select-fire before the kalishnakov and others came along in the 40s?
 
According to Small Arms of the World, a requirement for a 7.92 cartridge with a 33mm case was solidified in 1934. Haenal & Walther produced a small number of 'machine carbines' around 1942. The rifle that wound up being produced & widely distributed was the Schmeisser MP43/MP44 starting in 1943.
 
The final version (MP-44) was later renamed the StG.-44. The word "Sturmgewehr" (litterally: "assault rifle"), is a word generally credited to Adolf Hitler himself. Interestingly, the original "MP" designation was designed to fool Hitler. He was a chronic medler-what might now be referred to as a "micromanager"-and had previously forbade the developement of any new small arms save maschinenpistolen.
 
Last edited:
As always, in gun advances, you can rarely point to a specific arm and state "This is the FIRST flintlock, revolving firearm, SMG, or assault weapon".

A case for the predecessor to the modern assault weapon COULD be made for the Henry rifle.
It's a short, light, lower power, rapid fire, large magazine capacity weapon.

Another good candidate is the Remington Models 8 and 81 carbine as modified in the 1930's by lawmen by adding a 30 round magazine.
Texas Ranger Frank Hamer used one while hunting for Bonnie and Clyde.
Again, short, light, an intermediate power cartridge, fast firing, large magazine capacity.

Probably the BEST predecessor is the US M1 Carbine, and many experts consider it the "first" assault weapon, by a modern understanding of what an assault weapon is.
 
I sure love my M1 Carbine!

When was the M2 first manufactured in numbers? That might qualify. Although the .30 Carbine is more of a souped-up pistol round than the "intermediate" round required to make it a true assault rifle.
 
True, I guess there is the question of defining "Intermediate power" - but probably the M1 carbine is closer to a pistol round than a intermediate, being close to .357 mag and all. In any event, was the M1 carbine always issued as a select-fire weapon?
 
The final version (MP-44) was later renamed the StG.-44. The word "Sturmgewehr" (litterally: "assault rifle"),
Click to expand...
The Russians used this as a template when designing the AK. The West didn't catch on until later.
 
A MOVE THREAD and a comment - -

I was remiss in not moving this thread from Rifles to Full Auto previously. I believe it will get more reactions here. Or not. Sorry.


dfariswheel wrote:
They first pistol-caliber automatic weapon was the Italian Villar Perosa of 1914. This was the "first" SMG.

This was originally developed for aircraft use, but was adapted for infantry use. This was a double barreled weapon with two vertical magazines.
Click to expand...
Actually, it depends on which account you read. The Italian Army probably mounted them on bicycles (!) and motorcycles first, and then on aircraft. Somewhere in the chronology, some enterprising armourer got the idea to split the little double gun, mount a stock on each half, and, Vo-alla, a highly portable pistol caliber machinegun was implemented.

Only time I've ever seen one depicted in movies was in "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade." Sean Connery managed to shoot down his own biplane with a Villar Perosa. :p

Best,
Johnny
 
Only time I've ever seen one depicted in movies was in "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade." Sean Connery managed to shoot down his own biplane with a Villar Perosa.
Click to expand...
I seem to recall it being a much bigger gun.
 
Say what?

I seem to recall it being a much bigger gun.
Click to expand...
Do you mean, the one in the movie being much bigger than the V-P?

Or, the real V-P being a much bigger gun than the one in the movie?

Or, uh, . . . . :confused:


;)
Johnny
 
The V-P was a 9mm, right? Magazine fed? As I recall the one on that plane had the barrels too far apart, and looked like it was belt fed. I think I've seen a picture of a V-P, and I don't think it was the one. Someone got the movie?
 
" Small Arms of the World" has the story and photos. Originally theV-P was for vehicles ,twin mount(no stock) with mags mounted above the gun, fired like a machine gun. Later changes included stock etc.It was used on motor cycles , aircraft etc.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top