Who is Geronimo?

M

mikthestick

New member
I thought some of you might like to see this picture. I found it interesting because they wear cartridge belts but no holsters to carry pistols. Perhaps this is an insight into their mentality or lifestyle rather than what they can get their hands on. Yes it's the old guy. Reminds me of a bit in a Terry Pratchet Novel "TO BE THAT OLD YOU HAVE TO BE VERY GOOD. None of my friends have ever made the right choice.
 

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Well, those rifles could very well be chambered for pistol cartridges, so a cartridge belt full of say .38-40 or .44-40 would be perfectly appropriate.
 
The .44-40 and .38-40 actually were rifle cartridges that revolvers were later chambered for.
Someone acutally built a revolver that chambers .45-70 ammo, but that does not make the .45-70 a "pistol round".
 
You say tomato, I say tomato.

Strictly speaking you are, of course, correct. In terms of the discussion, it works a little better the way I said it.

Tomato.

"Someone acutally built a revolver that chambers .45-70 ammo, but that does not make the .45-70 a "pistol round"."

Uhm.... yeah, it does.

Rutabaga.

:p
 
Didn't alot of folks just push their pistols into their belts/sashes instead of holsters at one time? I know I've seen it, just not positive on the prevelance of the action.
 
Perhaps I speak out of turn, but I think Mike's point was that these gents weren't (and maybe DIDN'T) carry[ing] sidearms.


BTW Mike, where'd the photo come from? Interesting stuff for sure..
 
This part of the world abounds with old pictures of Apaches. I don't think I have ever seen one with an Apache carring a side arm. Rifles and if anything a war Axe.
 
2 1866s, a Spencers and a muzzleloading musket.
Pistol cartridges would be appropriate for the 1866s(probably 44 rimfires, 56-50 for the Spencer and whatever for the musket)
 
Ahhh - "white" folks took these photographs - you have to remember that while this gun leather MAY have belonged to him - it was not uncommon for the photographer to use "props" in his photographs - it was commonly done.

I collect WW I photos and I have two real photo postcards of different soldiers , both in sitting half views -both are holding an 1840 model "Old Wristbreaker" cavalry saber. The same phtographer took both photos. I have another which is a "full pose" of a soldier standing and he is holding a cap and ball Remington revolver. These items were basically Civil War "relics" that the photobgrapher had his subject hold - it made them look more "war like".

The photographers of the time period that you are looking at often carried "props" with them. These photographs were not made for the Chief or tribe - they were made for a variety of reasons. Some photographers wanted to honestly preserve history - others wanted to produce these photographs for sale to the masses back east who ate up this type of thing - they wanted to see the "savages" that were talked about in the newspapers and pulp fiction of the time. After reading and hearing about the Indians and their wars on the whites, etc. - they expected to see them with weapons and accouterments of war - that's what helped sell these photographs.

My response is not intended to affend anyone of Native American heritage. Let's face it - the whites broke every treaty that they ever made with the Native Americans. Some individuals and photographers were serious in their attempts to preserve the history and culture of the Native Americans through photographs, sketches, paintings, etc. They realized that those cultures were fast disappearing due to the genocide policy that was being undertaken at the time. Others saw it as a means to make money, something which the government and many of the general population of the time had no problems in doing at the expense of the various tribes.
 
who is Geronimo?

I agree on the props being used in Native American photos. I saw a photo of Geronimo with a rifle and a Dance and Brothers .44 cal percussion pistol. As rare as Dance and Brothers pistols were (500 made) I find it hard to believe that Geronimo had one for his sidearm.
 
The above picture was taken in 1886. It is the property of the Arizona Historical Society. Geronimo was captured in 1886. So it is undoubtedly a completely staged photograph.

Ahhh - "white" folks took these photographs - you have to remember that while this gun leather MAY have belonged to him - it was not uncommon for the photographer to use "props" in his photographs - it was commonly done.
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Yes, and this practice was ongoing from at least the days of the Civil War if not before. Soldiers had studio shot made often with weapons they would never have owned or carried, but are depicted with in photographs.
 
Not to argue the staging of photos. Because It was done, But that photo (with others) was taken in 1886 when Geronimo was surrendering to General Cook. I was always told these were were the only photos taken of hostile Indians in the field under arms.

There were lots of photos taken during this surrender so I doubt all were staged. But that is neither here nor there... The mail point of writing is that Geronimo was packing a pistol at the time of surrender.. A SAA
 
Most pictures were staged at this time simply because the "film" (glass or metal plates, mostly) were difficult to handle and prepare, the cameras were very bulky, and exposure times were typically fairly long.

Live action photography was pretty much non existent. There are some, such as the only known picture of an actual old west style gunfight (found in the Time Life series of books on the old west, the Gunslingers volumn, I believe), but the figures are generally blury as hell because of the movement.
 
Well I guess there needs to be a definition of what is a staged photo


One that is set up to take into account the problems of early Photography.. OK Just stand there, don't move, assume a pose type staging...


Or Here are some fake guns, lets add some blood, lets spice up the background, etc etc


I would tend to call photos under the second condition staged.. In the first because of the limitations of the media those photos at least tried to be as accurate as possible
 
The picture was purportedly taken in Mexico in 1886, probably at, or very close to, his negotiated surrender to/through 1st Lieutenant Charles Gatewood. Geronimo's rifle, as well as the one in the hands of the man to his right, appear to be percussion guns, as you can clearly see the drum bolsters and nipples. This seems a bit odd at this point, as cartridge repeaters had been around for a quarter of a century by now, and, being in many scuffles during this period, it seems almost a dead certainty Geronimo would have managed to arm himself with a repeater. Both men are wearing belts, but it can't be definitively seen in the picture if they are indeed cartridge belts.
 
Actually, the picture was copyrighted by C.S. Fly in Tombstone, AZ in 1886.
http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/photogallery/the-life-of-geronimo-in-pictures I can't find any provenance beyond northern Mexico for it. The vegetation in the image does match that for the Chihuahuan desert (which does include southern New Mexico)and for Skeleton Canyon where his surrendered in AZ.

In 1876, he surrendered and did have a Winchester 1876. At his surrender in 1877, he was using a Springfield trapdoor.

While repeaters may have been around, it doesn't necessarily mean that they would have been what he was carrying at any given time. Keep in mind that repeaters had been a round for quite a while before Custer and his group were killed at Little Bighorn and they didn't have repeaters.

I definitely think those are cartridge belts. Do you have another explanation for what they are?
 
Geronimo's rifle, as well as the one in the hands of the man to his right, appear to be percussion guns, as you can clearly see the drum bolsters and nipples
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Take a closer look. They are trapdoor springfields. Geronimo has an infantry rifle, the fellow next to him has a cavalry carbine. The "drum bolsters and nipples" are the latch that opens the trapdoor.
Rifle-TrapdoorSprinfieldCarbine-right.jpg

At the time, these were current issue military guns. Also, the two other guys (Geronimo's nephew,on the left and son) are holding 1873 winchester carbines. Not 1866 carbines. Look at the recievers and you can see the sideplates. This pic along with several others were taken by C. S. Fly in northern Mexico in 1886 during negotiations between Geronimo and General George Crook, for Geronimo's surrender. The apache are in fact "enemies in the field" in these photos. They are not "staged" with prop guns,etc. As for revolvers, most indians, not just apaches, didn't carry them. They didn't need them. Their rifles were all they needed for defense as well as hunting. Pistols were unnecessary weight. The apache were notorious for traveling light. Some did carry them (like Geronimo) but not that many.
This is a replica of Geronimo's gunbelt, holster and knife from Chislom's trail old west leathers. http://www.westernleatherholster.com/historical-holsters/
Als-Geronimo-Rig-Als-complete-3.jpg


This is the real one.
geronimo-holster-1.jpg

geronimo-holster-2.jpg


While repeaters may have been around, it doesn't necessarily mean that they would have been what he was carrying at any given time. Keep in mind that repeaters had been a round for quite a while before Custer and his group were killed at Little Bighorn and they didn't have repeaters
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No, but the indians did.:D That's one (of many) reason that Custer lost. The U.S. government, in it's un-erring wisdom, decided to adopt a single shot breech loading rifle/carbine to replace the seven shot Spencer rifle/carbine, to make sure that the soldiers didn't "waste" ammo during a fight. The trapdoor rifles saw use from 1868 through the Spanish-American war in 1898. They were standard issue from 1873 to 1896.
 
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