stagpanther
New member
What would be the advantage of a red dot over some kind of bright front post sight? Just curious (might be an obvious answer--I just don't know what it is).
Who here has a red dot mounted on your carry gun?
- Thread starter DMK
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With any of the iron sights, there are 3 different planes you need to manage/align. The target, the front sight and the rear sight. This is difficult for the human eye to cope with.
A red dot eliminates this issue. Look at the target/threat and the red dot floats on it.
It also eliminates sight alignment errors. Makes precision shooting easier and faster.
A red dot eliminates this issue. Look at the target/threat and the red dot floats on it.
It also eliminates sight alignment errors. Makes precision shooting easier and faster.
American Man
New member
Just cutting and pasting a little to help answer your questions.What would be the advantage of a red dot over some kind of bright front post sight? Just curious (might be an obvious answer--I just don't know what it is).
This is from pages 12 & 13 from the Sage Dynamics Whitepaper.
Quote:
The involuntary loss of control over the Ciliary muscles when we react to a threat is programmed into our “fight or flight” response. Our field of vision is increased to its maximum, the pupil dilates to allow in the maximum amount of light and allow us to best see our threat. Speaking in historical terms, we have been fighting with our hands and hand weapons much longer than firearms.
With implicit hand-eye coordination developed since birth, our threat response is hard wired to focus on the threat. Motor control for hand movements is not dependent on continual visual input. Unfortunately, visual input, close focus, is necessary for sighted fire with a firearm. Sighted fire is done by centering the front sight in the rear notch, placing the front sight in focus and driving it to a spot over our threat. When the SNS activates, this ability is largely lost. The “front sight focus” that has been beaten into every shooter’s brain from day one is gone; we cannot focus on the front sight because our nervous system doesn’t allow it. Loss of near focus is temporary, though appears to last as long as the SNS is active or a conscious decision is made to alter the point of focus.
End Quote.
I have only fought with rifles and as long as I had a good position on the cheek weld, nothing mattered... I hit everything... running targets, popping in and out of windows, etc... I can see with two arms out under some high stress, things might not be as smooth... and just might be all F-d up. I still think under 15 yards most people (who train) will be ok... but maybe not. It will all depend on how someone deals with stress. To me, the red dot is a bit superior... and I did not care one bit for them when they first came out. lol
A link to the Sage Dynamics Whitepaper is in the OPs original post.
stagpanther
New member
Thanks for the answers. To continue with my "devil's advocate line of thought"--suppose instead you simply had a hooded front sight bright post (no rear iron at all)?
stagpanther
New member
Understood. However, the slide top still has length--and even when using a rear iron it's only a "peripheral awareness" (since we can't focus on both). If it's possible to bring a red dot up with proper alignment without using any kind of co-witnessing with irons--why wouldn't you be able to do the same with a front bright post? Not trying to be purposefully obtuse.
Cheapshooter
New member
I don't use "sights" either. At self defense range, under 10yards (probably way under). You had better be used to point and shoot instinct shooting, not looking for any kind of sight like you are on a range shooting at a piece of paper.
Practice is good, training is good. Real life is still different.
If hanging gadgets on your gun makes you feel good, great for you. I'll take the K.I.S.S. over high tech everyday.
I've done multi day courses on reflexive shooting. My point was you can do it either with or without the presence of a red dot, just like you can with iron sights (which is what I said and you chose not to quote). There is a transition point in distance where you should be using sights. It can vary by the shooter. For me it's beyond 7 yds. At that point I want sights, or a red dot. Are most engagements up close? Sure, but if we're going to wax about "real life" than engagements are fluid. People move, people miss and engagement ranges can change. KISS and "high tech gadgets" don't have to be mutually exclusive.
As for the square range vs. training vs. real life, training should be based in real life. If it isn't than it's not training imo. I see people that like to use that argument to avoid training all together. People that rely on shooting regularly for their defense train for a reason.
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As for the square range vs. training vs. real life, training should be based in real life. If it isn't than it's not training imo. I see people that like to use that argument to avoid training all together. People that rely on shooting regularly for their defense train for a reason.
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Cheapshooter
New member
So the targets are moving? Dodging, and weaving, up,and down, thrusting, and charging. I guess one of those video scenario screens in an indoor range would do that.But that isn't what I see most often. Stationary targets, maybe pop-ups, with the training shooter moving.
I guess my "refkex" shooting, I call it instinct, came from busting bunnys, and bushytails dodging through brush and trees. With everything from a bolt action 410 shotgun to a 22 pistol, and even a .36 cap and ball replica. Don't really know how I've trained for over 60 years. Just that I generally hit what I point at, quickly if needed.
That a person can shoot well without training doesn't mean there isn't benefit from training. Yes there are limitations to training. Those are still generally less than most people encounter on their own. Do your bunnies shoot back? My guess is no. Force on force allows that as an option. Force on force combined with square range training to introduce the concepts can be very effective.
Many people do not have the luxury of a large amount of private/public land where they can shoot how or as they please and even private clubs can be pretty restrictive for insurance reasons. The goal is these limitations are less at these facilities, and that you're getting instruction you wouldn't have otherwise. If you don't see the value to that fine, but it doesn't change the fact that training and real life don't have to be mutually exclusive and people that choose not to train at all often have very strong opinions of something they've never tried. If you've grown up hunting in the woods your whole life like Alvin York or Audie Murphy and are as naturally talented then great, but even they still went through basic (and many of us are mere mortals).
And none of this changes the fact that having a red dot doesn't stop you from point or reflexive shooting.
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Many people do not have the luxury of a large amount of private/public land where they can shoot how or as they please and even private clubs can be pretty restrictive for insurance reasons. The goal is these limitations are less at these facilities, and that you're getting instruction you wouldn't have otherwise. If you don't see the value to that fine, but it doesn't change the fact that training and real life don't have to be mutually exclusive and people that choose not to train at all often have very strong opinions of something they've never tried. If you've grown up hunting in the woods your whole life like Alvin York or Audie Murphy and are as naturally talented then great, but even they still went through basic (and many of us are mere mortals).
And none of this changes the fact that having a red dot doesn't stop you from point or reflexive shooting.
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I know they are all the rage.
I mostly carry a pocket pistol so it's a no go.
I have dabbled by setting up a full sized potential home defense pistol Glock 17 equivalent with an RMR. I don't like the clutter and the demand for a perfect presentation to pick up the red dot. I'm guilty of enjoying multiple brands with multiple grip angles. I can get better data during the presentation from seeing the front sight's dot in relation to the rear dots when they are way off early in the presentation.
And I know my personality - perfectionist. I'd hesitate when I should be going for acceptable accuracy at speed. So while I have a red dot, haven't warmed up to it. So many things to practice, so little time.
I mostly carry a pocket pistol so it's a no go.
I have dabbled by setting up a full sized potential home defense pistol Glock 17 equivalent with an RMR. I don't like the clutter and the demand for a perfect presentation to pick up the red dot. I'm guilty of enjoying multiple brands with multiple grip angles. I can get better data during the presentation from seeing the front sight's dot in relation to the rear dots when they are way off early in the presentation.
And I know my personality - perfectionist. I'd hesitate when I should be going for acceptable accuracy at speed. So while I have a red dot, haven't warmed up to it. So many things to practice, so little time.
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Cheapshooter
New member
Quote from my post #47
Of course training, and practice are good, even necessary. Never said it wasn't.
True, however if one becomes dependant on seeing a dot they will tend to waste precious time in a high stress situation looking for one if it isn't there, or where it's "supposed" to be. Human nature. It would be important to train without the dot. Especially if it can be done randomly without knowledge of when it will or will not work.
Thus again, for me it K.I.S.S..
The dot is a substitute/supplement for the iron sights. You can use both sights and not use sights. Someone can become "dependent" on always seeing the sights. You have to practice both sighted and unsighted fire, regardless of using irons or a red dot.
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Mackie244Bud
New member
I have one..
The P320 Compact RX with a X-Compact Grip Module.. it has Talon Grips and a Keres Dynamic Pro Action Flat Trigger!
I carry it OWB at about 4:30'ish.
It is a joy to shoot and it is my Favorite gun..followed by my P365
My Sig Sauer EDC Dynamic Duo:
The P320 Compact RX with a X-Compact Grip Module.. it has Talon Grips and a Keres Dynamic Pro Action Flat Trigger!
I carry it OWB at about 4:30'ish.
It is a joy to shoot and it is my Favorite gun..followed by my P365
My Sig Sauer EDC Dynamic Duo:
Great posts guys. Thanks for keeping this on topic.
A few more really good videos from Sage Dynamics:
Making the switch to Handgun RDS
Does an RDS Make You Better With Irons?
A few more really good videos from Sage Dynamics:
Making the switch to Handgun RDS
Does an RDS Make You Better With Irons?
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Great posts guys. You do have to put the time in and train properly to get the advantages on an optical sight. If you are not willing to do that, you won't get the benefits.
How long does it take the average shooter to learn front sight focus? Sight alignment and sight picture? Proper grip? Recoil control? Proper trigger control? You have to train to learn the proper techniques. A few weeks or even a few months of shooting isn't enough.
What about unlearning skills you're already learned? Has anyone here every tried to change their stance? I'm still fighting my many years of reinforcing neuron pathways and sometimes fall into a Weaver stance when I really want isosceles. That doesn't mean I stop trying to correct it. I have to keep reinforcing the new way I want to train.
To paraphrase Rob Leatham, shooting handgun accurately is simple, it's just not easy. The same thing applies to red dot sighting.
The main advantage of a red dot sight is focus on the target, not the sight(s). This is intuitive. Guns are the only weapons we use where we focus on the tool and not the threat. Millions of years of evolution taught us focus on the threat. Our fight or flight responses have us focus on the threat. Rocks, clubs, spears, knives, bows, etc, all are used by focusing on the target/threat. Throw a ball or frisbee, where do you focus? Punch something, where you you focus? Hit a nail with a hammer, where do you focus? Red dot sights whether they are on a handgun, or long gun, allow us to target focus efficiently and effectively.
OK, so say we are focused on the threat and have a big dot tritium front sight, or a big neon glowing fiber optic sight, or something similar. That is helpful in allowing us to orient the gun in a peripheral sense. It was a good solution when we didn't have a better way to do it. Using the iron sights with a target focus is what some folks refer to as shooting through the sights. It's fine at very close range. Using the slide itself as a guide in your periphery may even be effective at close ranges. These are good skills to practice and be familiar with.
The red dot is a better way to do it. You have a nice crisp and clear reticle appearing in the same plane as your target. You focus on the target and the pipper is there. You don't look at the reticle, you look at the target. The reticle just there, on the target and very clear. Like a virtual laser dot.
The red dot also gives you a more precise aiming point at distance, and again you are concentrating on the target, not the sight(s). A big bright front sight can't do that. The further the target, the further out of focus your front sight will be when you are focused on the target or vice versa.
Sighting accurately with red dot also only requires three things to be aligned: your eye, the dot and the target. The latter two are clear in your vision. The dot doesn't even have to be in the center of the optic. It could be all the way to one side or in the top corner, etc. If you see the dot, that's where the bullet will be going when you press the trigger.
Iron sights require four things to be aligned: your eye, the rear sight, the front sight, and the target (or in your example; your eye, the rear of the slide, the front sight or front of the slide, and the target) Only one of those can be in sharp focus, and if you are being ambushed in an attack, it will be the target, regardless of your training.
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Yes, that is very true and important.
Optics failure or sight picture blockage remediation techniques:
Handgun Optic Failure Aiming Techniques
Improved Handgun Optic Blockage Aiming Method
.
Red dot or more accurately, reflex sights are not essential to accomplishing threat-focus. Point shooting also accomplishes the same. While the intended use of reflex sights is focus in the target's plane, the frame of the glass and the colored tint that is necessary for reflecting the "dot" (diode light) can both obscure the target and cause the brain to refocus on the sight, particularly the frame around the glass. The colored tint and the glass itself reduces light transmission significantly and is especially a problem in low light situations. Compare this to point shooting where the entire gun is potentially not even in view (1/4 hip position) or is in the periphery (3/4 hip). Of course, point shooting has its own even more serious drawbacks. For a 25 yard shot, slow aimed fire, the red dot reflex sight is clearly a big advantage. For a 3-yard snap shot, point shooting delivers all the advantages than reflex sights are only aiming for.