Who has actually had to use this stopping power

Status
Not open for further replies.
Dr. D-
Your request is granted. Well at least in part. The thread stays open and will die a natural death. (No ganging up, guys! ;))

As for others here, Reread the Forum Policies. The alternative is going to be a sudden and significant attrition of Membership.
Rich

[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited July 30, 1999).]
 
Not to gang up but I have to take issue with one statement:

"I have been a ccw holder since 1984 and have never had the gun out of the holster except on the range. I dont have that short a fuse."

This implies that any of us CCW holders that have had to draw our weapon have a short fuse. This implies everything that the anti-gun people want to believe which is that peope just get mad and shoot each other and that is why we shouldn't have guns handy. Many here including myself have used our carry guns to defend ourselves, and it was not out of anger and had nothing to do with having a "short fuse". When someone is trying to kill me or victimize me and I draw my weapon in defense, it has nothing to do with anger, but everything to do with dissolving the situation and preserving innocent life. I feel that if you have been carrying a gun for over 15 years and never needed to use it, then you are fortunate and that is good, but a short fuse has nothing to do with whether any of us have need to defend ourselves by drawing our legally carried guns.

As you can see, few people here have needed to use their gun in defense and those that have don't like to discuss it. You certainly won't get any of these private people to publically discuss their shooting experiences with the condescending way you asked the question, as if because some of the people here have never shot anyone, that we shouldn't even discuss ballistics (as if one shooting were indicitive of what the next one might hold). The only way to get an accurate account of ballistic performance is to study many cases and take the mean. One person may drop on the spot from a .22 to the gut, but that is not a good indication of what every shooting after that will be like. Even if one of us has shot someone and watched them die (something we all hope to avoid), it does not really mean anything in the big picture because that is just ONE case.
 
As thinned skin as some of the responders to this question are, it wouldn't take much stopping power at all!
Relax and enjoy the forum.
Cat
 
FWIW, I interpreted the question as being more like, "So much for theory, do we have any actual field data?" and was really looking forward to the responses. I remember one magazine article from 5+ years ago which compared the stopping power of the 40 cal with some other bore. The methodology was to painstakingly review 700 police files for all of the ballistic data and incident data to determine which of the two cals worked best on the scene. (40 cal won I think).

We all know these kinds of events fall under the heading of "I never want to relive that" but maybe this kind of quasi-anonymous forum is a vehicle for leeching some of the poison out. Anyway, the stopping power question is still interesting. I would want to know about one-shot stop PLACEMENT (between the eyes), not DISplacement(40cal v 9mm).
 
I can see why someone involved in a shooting would be reluctant to talk about it in an open forum, or even to relive unpleasant times. But the free flow of info helps all of us. I ALWAYS read what you guys say, even if I disagree.

Maybe Rich could set up an anonymous account to post from, so members could post without threat of legal trouble or feeling like they were just boasting about it inapropriately.

If I were involved in an actual shooting event, I would like to think that I would post about it so all could learn from my mistakes...
 
My humble thoughts on this issue.

When one has to use a firearm to defend themselves... the instant that hammer falls, it becomes an event that transcends any arguments about caliber, ballistics, stopping power, etc. It becomes a deeply personal issue that must be dealt with by ones own means. Some may choose to discuss it, other may not. Human life is a precious thing, no matter how rotten the soul it's attached to. Personally, I take a bit of exception to those who choose to discuss it openly and clinically, but I will never hold it against them. Everyone deals with it in their own way.

As far as discussing a fire fight to learn from your mistakes, you will have no need as you will replay the event in your mind a thousand times a week. You will analyze every possible option and find a hundred different ways you "could have" dealt with it better. I pray that you or no one else here will ever have to go through it.

I don't think Dr. D's question was meant to upset anybody. He just touched a very sensitive nerve with some people. It's difficult to understand why, really, unless you've been there yourself. Words must be chosen carefully when asking questions of that nature.

There are plenty of resources out there (many listed above) where one can find the information requested. Most "sources" seem to contradict each other so take them with a grain of salt. The only really "conclusive" data suggests that "well placed shots work, poor shots don't."

Hope I didn't sound too preachy.

Regards, John


[This message has been edited by JJR (edited July 30, 1999).]
 
Dr. D, contact me at wrig446@ibm.net, and I'll tell you just about anything I've done or seen. This is not the best place to discuss such things.
 
This may or may not apply to this thread. I remember reading in a couple of places about those in the west of the 1880's (or thereabouts) who had "killed their man." They were described as quiet and almost withdrawn, not generally engaging in conversation with others at any length. Supposedly, this was the effect of the experience of shooting a fellow human. It may have very well just have been some newspaper editor's imagination or wishful thinking, as the newspapers of those days tended to be very opinionated and slanted in their views.

If such a thing is common to those who have had to use deadly force, it may speak loudly about some of the responses here.
 
Whooooeeee, we are jumping around on this one.......

Dr. D,
Ive never personally shot any individual and thats the way I want to keep it. I suppose you could say I practice/educate for a situation that I hope never occurs. Like most people we (shooters), we get facts as mentioned earlier from those individuals who research such information and report on it.

btw.....I did hear at the local gun store that any caliber will do if you do your part....lol..... :).

Ive come completely around on this theory of handgun stopping power....such a possibility exists, although the power from a handgun stopping all hostilities immediately is questionable-it appears very inconsistently and depends upon placement and penetration more than anything else, if the caliber you are using can penetrate the target or punch through a barrier and still penetrate deep enuf to effect the nervous system it will work. There are enuf variables to this to make it frustrating though, while everyone is the same we are all wired different and react differently so what drops one immediately wont affect immediately someone else, and there are various induced capablilites to withstand pain to deaden the nerves......example would be external chemicals, and internally adrealine and just plain mean.
I do hunt and have shot deer and the bugger's have run quite a way while in reality dead on their feet and that is with a solid load in 308, they have skedaddled in spite of placement and penetration......and no defensive pistol caliber has that much stopping power, it appears to be a quest for determination of extremely small percentages of effectiveness, which apparently can be negated eaisly.

I think the question of taking a human life in a shooting scenario is hard at all times, on a public forum with the anti-gun fevor it could have a chiling effect on people's replys...there is quite a bit written on it by ""experts"". The trauma that the individual experiences who was forced into shooting the crimminal out of fear for his own life by that same crimminal--can effect him adversly for the remainder of his life, cost him his family, his professional standing,, not to mention court costs and related hassles...........all in all taking a life is not something I would ever strive for, avoiding that is something every shooter I know does strive for.......fubsy.
 
My main problem with Dr. D's question was that this posting was his first, as far as I could find, but I could be wrong. We check out and post on anti-gun sites so what prevents anti-gunners from posting here? Nothing. And then what prevents them from asking questions that, if answered, could be used to show that pro-gun people are nothing but blood thirsty, kill crazed thugs?

NONE of the police officers that I know and have been involved in gunsmoke altercations want to talk about the events. That is with others from the department(s) and close friends, so why would they want to post information about what happened to a stranger?

If that is being touchy, oh well.

------------------
Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"
 
I think Jim V. makes a very strong point. What if Dr. D was an anti-gunner looking to show us up as blood thirsty goons? I think we're better of that he is gone,
Paul B.
 
Can you guy's please take a chill pill. If you don't like his post then don't answer. Remember that free speech amendment. Let him ask what he wants. If it troubles you to answer then DON'T!!
Some of us would like to read the true responses not about your insecurities. I know many people who have been in gun fights and wouldn't hesitate to help others know what they learned. The concern that D may be an anti-gunner is legitimate. Our answers need to be honest but of the same content that we would use if speeking to a group of unknown people.
Please give this guy a break.

D! don't be afraid to ask questions.
 
Can you guy's please take a chill pill. If you don't like his post then don't answer. Remember that free speech amendment. Let him ask what he wants. If it troubles you to answer then DON'T!!
Some of us would like to read the true responses not about your insecurities. I know many people who have been in gun fights and wouldn't hesitate to help others know what they learned. The concern that D may be an anti-gunner is legitimate. Our answers need to be honest but of the same content that we would use if speeking to a group of unknown people.
Please give this guy a break.

D! don't be afraid to ask questions.

------------------
"It is easier to get out of jail then it is a morgue"
Live long and defend yourself!
John 3:16
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top