Who and what determines value?

Forgot one point: tooling up costs, mitigated by volume.

One round of 9mm may cost 10-100 dollars in press setup time. Once the press is working, it may produce 1200 rounds an hour, at a cost of 10 cents each.

Same theory for guns. First Glock, very expensive. 10 millionth Glock, with no retooling, maybe 25 dollars, in materials.
 
And that where the supply side of supply and demand comes in...the 10 millionth Glock that cost $25 to manufacture should cost what? $500...or $27.50?
 
Your price point is dependent on the other factors I mentioned, and, how well you use them. It's also determined by your marketing philosophy.

Some folks carve out a small demand in the market, keep demand for their product high, and charge a LOT of money.
Hamilton Bowen comes to mind.

Others make up in volume production, and mass sales, for profit margin.

Some manage to combine both, a very high profit margin, with a very low production cost, and, they end up nearly being killed for money by greedy partners.

Seriously, there is a point where what you take out of the market can harm the goose that laid that golden egg for you...

Unless of course, you are Bill Gates. Then you can illegally monopolize an area, charge very high prices, even have the Federal government convict you, and still do the same thing, year after year, because there is not a real, cost effective alternative.
 
We, the consumer set the prices and value`s. Supply and demand.Simple economics. Guns are no different than anything else people take interest in and enjoy. Saw a 1969 Chevelle SS- 396 all orginal sell for $125,000. Car sold new for around $9500-$10,500. Some of you may remember the NBA strike some years back. When news guy stuck micro-phone in Dennis Rodmans big ugly mug and ask him ' with your multi-million dollar a year salary, how could you ever support a strike. Where does it stop?", Dennis Rodman turned and looked in the camara with a smirk on his and stated"supply and demand,baby,as long as people are willing to pay the price he`ll keep taking the money". People still pay the big dollars for pro sports tickets. Look at what a Colt Python or M1 cost for what it cost to make. SUPPLY AND DEMAND BABY !!!
 
For the unit profit seen on most of these handguns,it is a miracle that any company can stay in business these days.

Especially when you have bulk returns to the used handgun market of simply fantastic handguns from police agencies.

Price does not equal quality however.

The handgun buyer can well find outstanding handguns at great prices if they look enough.

But the market and the seller determines intial price with the buyer determining final price.

If the gun does not sell quickly,it must be down priced,because there are ten coming behind it right now that must also be sold.

And the funniest thing to me is that gun store to gun store,there is no uniform pricing of handguns.

You have to look and look often to find the best deals.

But they are definitley there to be had,if you search well enough.
 
My local shops are all about 100 percent markup, in particular, right now. Obamamania has put them in a situation barely being able to get enough product to sell.
Only thing slowing them down is Kali law.

If you want a decent price, you either know them, or, you've done business in the past, and they give you a good price. Only way I got my Kahr...
 
There you go again, Bill. Trying to confuse everyone with facts and reason. Sheesh! They must think you're a troll...!

An engraved sterling silver lighter and a Bic lighter will do exactly the same thing. The Bic costs a lot less, is just as reliable (if not more so), is smaller, and lighter weight. I wear a Rolex watch, but I have no problem with wearing my Timex-it keeps much better time, anyway. So it is with guns.

...

It has nothing to do with price, it has to do with suitability of purpose.
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Let's see:
Someone pays for a guy from Purdy doing 1700 dollars worth of engraving on a Ruger .41 mag. Is it worth that?
Guy paid near 4gs, but, loves the gun...
 
Creature
Exactly what is your idea of "over inflated" pricing?
Let's say the guns' gross manufacturing cost is $150. What do YOU think it should retail for?
Are you one of those people who think everything should be "fair?"
What if you went into the gun making business-what do you think your profit markup percentage should be? Maybe we can all learn something here. Tell us how you would do it-please.
 
What automatic pistols do is pretty simple and the beauty of the automatic is that it's a single-shot gun that reloads itself, that is, there's no strict relationship between manufacturing tolerances and performance.


The performance of a revolver on the other hand is directly affected by small variations in multiple mechanical factors all of which are hard enough to get right in the first place and which can go out of whack with use.


The revolver won't have an FTF or an FTE, but power and accuracy can be perceptibly affected by manufacturing tolerances.


It occurs to me that, figuratively, the revolver is analog and the automatic pistol is digital.


What does this have to do with the OP's post? Well, I think that the quality of a revolver is much more likely to be proportional to its price than is the quality of an automatic pistol.


If money were no object, then the $5000 you spent on a Korth revolver would get you more than the $500 you spent on a S&W revolver and that $500 would get you more than the $300 you spent on a Taurus revolver. Sure, the curve flattens out the higher you go in price, but it's not completely flat out to $5000 or so.


For automatic pistols, though, I suspect this curve doesn't really exist or that it goes flat around $300 or $400. Maybe lower than that. The differences in price for automatic pistols may be affected somewhat by the cost of materials (where it matters) or by QC or customer service. But I suspect that these are minor factors. The principal factors affecting the price of automatic pistols may rather be (admittedly speculation on my part): Cost of materials that don't affect quality (e.g. steel vs plastic), manufacturing methods (old and expensive vs new and efficient), and brand value (Walther vs Hi-Point).
 
Great thread PBP, I work as a jeweler part time and it always rubs me the wrong way when someone calls something overpriced for no other reason then it is more than they would like to pay. You have to pay for quality! (Hint) it doesn't go on sale for 70% off every weekend.

Higher-end item will be more expensive and only marginally better than lesser priced items. This seems to hit companies like HK, Seecamp, and Custom 1911's because many shooters will buy a Glock or CZ, enjoy great accuracy and reliability and therefore determine that anything more expensive is a ripoff !

To me, the pride of ownership from a high-end handgun along with better materials/finish/performance is worth the price. If you don't feel the benefits of a high end handgun are worth it, fine, but please don't use 7-yard groups and similar construction as the only factors when determining value.

Seems like you see this fairly often:
“I got this (insert value price handgun here) and it goes bang every time I pull the trigger! (READ, VERY RELIABLE) And its super-duper accurate at 7 yards, I don't know why anyone would spend any more on a pistol." (GEE, I DON'T KNOW EITHER)

At least with guns they often get better with price, my Timex is definitely more accurate than my Gevril gv2.
 
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What it really comes down to is how many people are willing to put the money up for the gun? If 1 million people are willing to pay 600 dollars for a Glock, I'm going to have a very hard time buying one, when I think it's worth 200-275, due to the trigger quality.

On the otherhand, I've bought Freedom Arms revolvers for around 800 dollars, simply because they aren't popular, or trendy in my area.

My point is popularity, and caliber also determine value.
 
Case in point, Springfields XD. It was tha HS 2000 before Springfield picked it up. Cut a few grooves in the slide, slap the Springfield name on it and jack the price up over $200. How was it an inferior gun when it was the HS 2000?

Another case, the current Colt 1911. I have a Rock Island and a Charles Daily that will shoot rings around the current Colts any time.

I have two Bersa Thunderer's, a 9mm and a 45, niether has ever had a hicup with about 700 rounds fired from each. I have no problem carrying one for CCW

Then there is the EAA witness's. Now you could get a CZ or a Baby Eagle, but they won't shoot one bit better than the EAA
 
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That was one of the best rants I've ever seen

Demand determines value.

There is also more than one type of value. Value to each individual person, and market value. (what they typically go for on the open market)

I'm one of the Bersa guys. I don't go as far as to say they're better than HKs. But my experience with my Model 83 is that it is very accurate, and reliable with round nose bullets. (haven't tried many types of HP)

When I shoot an HK or a nice 1911, I can see where the money went, but that doesn't necessarily make it more valuable to me.

It gets more complex again when we look at guns that have collector value. For instance, the recent thread about the Luger that was thousands of dollars. I'm sure it is well-made, but the main thing that makes it valuable (to someone) is that it is rare.

Most of us are somewhere in the middle. We go for guns that offer good value to us as individuals. Of course we are tempted to look for guns that seem to offer more for the money than others.

A good example to me is the Steyr M1A (?) Austrian quality, good ergonomics and accuracy, but low cost. Why the low cost? There have been speculations on it, but there are folks who believe they're great.
 
Says who? Just because you make a mouse trap doesnt mean the world is obligated to beat a path to your door.
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Wow. Seriously? I didn't say they had a right to your business, I said they have a right to profit. Anybody in business should be expected to sell their product for no profit? What would be the point? Of course no one is obligated to buy the item they're offering but if you do buy it I know of no reasonable person that would deny them a profit.




Obviously you know nothing about economics and business...
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Apparently that's why my business is so successful...
 
value

"The market determines the value."
"Demand determines value"
Yep. And there is a whole lot of truth to the "pride of ownership" idea.
+1.
Pete
 
I found a Rolex in a casino in the Bahamas. I gave it back 20 minutes later, the dern thing was too big - almost as big as my Rohrbaugh. :) And gaudier than my Rohrbaugh.

I was standing at the end of a blackjack table smoking and waiting on the dealer to shuffle when a Rolex landed in the chair. I held it up and waved it around at the casino (and the cameras), but nobody was looking for it, so I put it on the table and went back to playing. About 20 minutes later there a commotion at a roulette table about 40 feet away - the guy finally realized he'd lost it and was crawling around on the floor under the table. It must have flown off during a high five when the strap broke.

He made a $25 bet on a number I picked and won me a little money.


Anyway, here's what Mr. Jewell said when he was asked why his triggers cost so much...

"They cost what they cost."

John
 
Kris...
I do believe those that can't afford do bash the expensive guns, to bring them down to their level. Just like those that can before tend to "look down " on the cheaper guns. It's just a simple "pecking order" issue. It's for validation purposes from both sides.
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No doubt there is some of that but it's also a straight forward difference of perspective. If $500 is a mortgage/rent payment then a $1000 gun really does have to be at least twice as good as a $500 gun to seem worth it. If on the other hand $500 is a couple weeks of eating out then maybe even a small difference in finish quality seems worth it because $500 just doesn't seem like a lot.

Don't forget too, that, although there are some exceptions here, most of us haven't owned the thousands of guns necessary to actually have a statistically significant opinion on which guns are "good" and which ones are "bad". All it takes for most of us is a one or two bad experiences with a particular gun or brand to form an opinion. I see this all the time with computers, ask 5 different computer geeks which brands of hard drives are the best/worst and you'll get different answers from each and they'll all be 100% certain that they're right and anyone who disagrees is an idiot. Mostly it's just dumb luck which brands we've had problems with but that doesn't stop us from having an opinion. As humans, that's just how we're wired.
 
As with hard drives, a specific item may be fine. You really need to research a larger sampling, but, it's your luck.

Mine doesn't seem to be real good, since the Kimbers both broke MIM parts, my S&@ autolocked, and my CZ 550 came without a firing pin, and, took 2 months to get replaced(you want fear? Pull the trigger on a loaded .375 H&H, and get 'click':eek:)

that said, I at least knew my chances when I bought all of them, and, given the chance, would do almost all of them again.
 
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