Which test range with a less than accurate AR?
- Thread starter Pond James Pond
- Start date
Pond James Pond
New member
Generous offer, but i think it would be illegal. Not so much from my end as bullets are not restricted goods, but I think from the US side.
ITAR, export permits and all that!
As appreciated as it would be, I don't think my and my M400's potential for improvement warrant the inconvenience!!
Thanks for the thought, though!
ITAR, export permits and all that!
As appreciated as it would be, I don't think my and my M400's potential for improvement warrant the inconvenience!!
Thanks for the thought, though!
RAfiringline
New member
>ITAR, export permits and all that! <
Aside from twist rates, the best ammo for the price that I've come across is manufactured in Europe: Geco.
This was 55g stuff, my rifle has 1in9 twist.
DPMS 223 100 yd groups, avg of two 5 shot groups
1.5 Federal Gold match
1.7 Geco
2.4 Fiocchi
2.7 Tula
3 Brown bear
4.3 Freedom reload
Aside from twist rates, the best ammo for the price that I've come across is manufactured in Europe: Geco.
This was 55g stuff, my rifle has 1in9 twist.
DPMS 223 100 yd groups, avg of two 5 shot groups
1.5 Federal Gold match
1.7 Geco
2.4 Fiocchi
2.7 Tula
3 Brown bear
4.3 Freedom reload
Pond James Pond
New member
Geco does crop up here and there and can be reasonably priced. I may enquire with my source if or when my Fiocchi runs out.
My Fiocchi is performing similarly to your own, from my 1:7.
My Fiocchi is performing similarly to your own, from my 1:7.
Well...good luck Mr. Pond. If your saying you havent even begun to load the PPU 62gr's yet, then they shouldn't be a bad start. I can't say that I would do much better than 2+ MOA benched if just using a 4x scope. I know some shooters have no problem awith that, I found that 9x to be minimum for actually group testing smallest groups to 100yards. I think 3moa at 300 is actually really good with your optic. Have tou considered that you have your rifle set up to be a closer ranged battle rifle? And not a group shooting "precision" rifle and you should just load and shoot it to those standards? You said competition that you are just shooting fast for COM and not accuracy not being as critical as fast acquisition and making hits in a 6" diameter, so just do that, and be happy when it does. I don't think you NEED a trigger to shoot nice groups, may make it easier on YOUR end, but your rifle's accuracy will not know the difference between a 10# trigger or a 2# trigger, that will be noticed on your end only. I know I am not even close to the top tier when it comes to benched rifle shooting, but I will say I have yet to invest in an aftermarket trigger excluding the Mosin, and 1 q
1/4 is my norm for 100 yards, decent ammo, a 9x scope and my very cheap, but well put together delta ringed, bone stock 16" 1:7 carbine. As I was trying to say, the heavyweihht high BC super bullets really shine past 200 yards because they make use of that weight and profile to stay accurate to distances before that seemed impossible for the caliber, but at 100 yards, I would worry less about heavy weight ans just try to find well made, consistent bullets and just practice, practice, practice until you KNOW you have reach full potential with your load/twist/optic combo and of it is not where you NEED it to be then change something. But it sounds like you may be going above your "scope of practice" with your AR set-up.(there it....my first TFL pun, that feels awful). I think you make consider building an upper(bcg optional) with a simple 18" 1:8 twist barrel with a scope on top for the days y want to fins your 1" or sub load at 100 yards. I know....many will say it just takes practice and iron sights, but not for me. I have my 400+ yard rifle that I workup 100yard groups with a large 18x scope and a one piece mount, an AR geared more towards your goal of fast acquisitions and battle groups and I also have several "tactical assault" super cool-guy AR's that stay under 100 yards and happy I'd they shoot under two inches at 50 considering they have I happen dots, irons or reflex and were made for silly fun in untraditional calibers. Sounds like your rifle may be doing exactly what its supposed be doing for its intended purpose
1/4 is my norm for 100 yards, decent ammo, a 9x scope and my very cheap, but well put together delta ringed, bone stock 16" 1:7 carbine. As I was trying to say, the heavyweihht high BC super bullets really shine past 200 yards because they make use of that weight and profile to stay accurate to distances before that seemed impossible for the caliber, but at 100 yards, I would worry less about heavy weight ans just try to find well made, consistent bullets and just practice, practice, practice until you KNOW you have reach full potential with your load/twist/optic combo and of it is not where you NEED it to be then change something. But it sounds like you may be going above your "scope of practice" with your AR set-up.(there it....my first TFL pun, that feels awful). I think you make consider building an upper(bcg optional) with a simple 18" 1:8 twist barrel with a scope on top for the days y want to fins your 1" or sub load at 100 yards. I know....many will say it just takes practice and iron sights, but not for me. I have my 400+ yard rifle that I workup 100yard groups with a large 18x scope and a one piece mount, an AR geared more towards your goal of fast acquisitions and battle groups and I also have several "tactical assault" super cool-guy AR's that stay under 100 yards and happy I'd they shoot under two inches at 50 considering they have I happen dots, irons or reflex and were made for silly fun in untraditional calibers. Sounds like your rifle may be doing exactly what its supposed be doing for its intended purpose
Also, consider the same rifle that just clocked her first sub-moa groups, struggled to get 2.25" groups two years ago even with the "best" powders, bullets and workups that America has to offer, which is anything I could want in this hyper-fad-for-the-moment caliber. It wasn't until somewhere between 1500-2000 rounds I started getting to 1.5's and now I am at 3-4000 rounds was getting 1.25's and just now at 5000 plus and a bigger scope I hit a sub 1". It took me a lot of practice and close three years and 5000 rounds to finally be "happy" with the shooting, and my barrel will Prolly be toast be the time a get any better. I'll bet this type of bulk shooting will prohibited by cost in your country and it may take 4 years to get the supposed one inch groups that we get every day with any AR without fail. So slow down and take your time, don't get frustrated until you count the thousands of rounds needing your second set of digits, then you can get mad if your not within a few tenths up or down of that 1" group.
Pond James Pond
New member
The way I've set up the rifle, I am pretty much point blank (by this I mean hitting somewhere in the alpha zone on a COMstock target) from 0m all the way out to about 270m. Some hold-over is probably advised after about 220m just to be on the safe side of not clipping the Charlie zone. At 300m, I need to hold on the top of the COMstock for hits in the lower half of the Alpha.
Extrapolated Zeros are at 15m and 210m.
At least that is the theory. I'll need to shoot a little to be sure the set up matches the desired outcome.
In this respect, my rifle is as I want it. Easy to shoot out to 300m which is great as competition targets are set at any ranges out to 50m, then next at 100m and then 300m.
However, if I'm to reload ammo for this gun I'd like to at least match, if not beat the factory ammo's accuracy through my gun at the same unit price or less if possible. That is why I'm giving these PRVI FMJBTs a go.
Extrapolated Zeros are at 15m and 210m.
At least that is the theory. I'll need to shoot a little to be sure the set up matches the desired outcome.
In this respect, my rifle is as I want it. Easy to shoot out to 300m which is great as competition targets are set at any ranges out to 50m, then next at 100m and then 300m.
However, if I'm to reload ammo for this gun I'd like to at least match, if not beat the factory ammo's accuracy through my gun at the same unit price or less if possible. That is why I'm giving these PRVI FMJBTs a go.
Pond James Pond
New member
Well I managed to extract myself from under the covers before 8am on a day to arrive at the range about 9.
I managed to set up my targets and go through both OCW ladders with N135 and N140.
Some may remember about a thread where I was concerned about how compressed my highest N140 load was, and indeed after one shot, I saw what looks like an ejector imprint on the head, so I decided to leave the others of that group out.
All in all, the two ladders seem to have been a success with what look like viable groups in each powder. I'll only know the full results when I have uploaded the pictures and run them through "On Target".
I feel confident in saying that I have at least matched the accuracy of my factory ammo as well as the price, which was my minimum satisfactory result. If group size shows some loads that out-perform factory ammo, all the better!
So thanks to those who offered advice and thoughts. It seems to have paid off.
I managed to set up my targets and go through both OCW ladders with N135 and N140.
Some may remember about a thread where I was concerned about how compressed my highest N140 load was, and indeed after one shot, I saw what looks like an ejector imprint on the head, so I decided to leave the others of that group out.
All in all, the two ladders seem to have been a success with what look like viable groups in each powder. I'll only know the full results when I have uploaded the pictures and run them through "On Target".
I feel confident in saying that I have at least matched the accuracy of my factory ammo as well as the price, which was my minimum satisfactory result. If group size shows some loads that out-perform factory ammo, all the better!
So thanks to those who offered advice and thoughts. It seems to have paid off.
Pond James Pond
New member
Here are the results at 100m with 5 shot test groups.
All of the cases were 60.4mm long, with Fiocchi SR primers in S&B "TopShot" cases. Bullets were all PRVI 62gr FMJBT.
From N135, ignoring what looked like a great 4-shot 1.8MOA that grew to over 4MOA with 23.gn, I got an interesting node around 24.7gn and 24.9gn with 2.9 and 3.3 MOA respectively.
For N140 I also got interesting results: 25.4gn and 25.7gn gave 2.9 MOA and 2.6 MOA.
At the moment, all 4 of these loads actually performed better than my current factory ammo.
So from here I might do a comparative of 10 shots from 24.8gn of N135 and 25.6gn of N140 to see which should be my go-to load when factory ammo is scarce.
All of the cases were 60.4mm long, with Fiocchi SR primers in S&B "TopShot" cases. Bullets were all PRVI 62gr FMJBT.
From N135, ignoring what looked like a great 4-shot 1.8MOA that grew to over 4MOA with 23.gn, I got an interesting node around 24.7gn and 24.9gn with 2.9 and 3.3 MOA respectively.
For N140 I also got interesting results: 25.4gn and 25.7gn gave 2.9 MOA and 2.6 MOA.
At the moment, all 4 of these loads actually performed better than my current factory ammo.
So from here I might do a comparative of 10 shots from 24.8gn of N135 and 25.6gn of N140 to see which should be my go-to load when factory ammo is scarce.