Which one?

Another plus in the 870 column. I shoot with a lot of folks who own expensive shotguns, but almost all have an 870 in the gunsafe. Mossberg is considered a joke. You just do not see them where serious shotgunners shoot. Try to find a mossberg listed among the winners at the Grand American! Reliability counts for something, and the Remington is reliable!

I would rather have the steel receiver and its alleged weight anyday, when you shoot a lot the extra weight is easier on the shoulder. Of course, Mossberg does have excellent barrels, because Remington makes them!

Mossbergs are the "saturday night specials" of the shotgun world!

Geoff Ross
 
Of all the shotguns available, I've had the most use with the Remington 870. That simple design has saved my hide on more than a few occasions.

Now, having said that. I must also point out that there are better fighting shotguns out there. If you are sold on the pump, the 870 has a great deal going for it, but I'd also take a serious look at the Benelli NOVA. I handled and shot one - impressive. I've got one on order.

There's nothing wrong with a semi-auto. They're more expensive, but certainly not more than a tricked out (and ultra-heavy) "tactical responder". In this category, the Super 90 would get top billing with the 11-87 coming in a close second.

Gabe Suarez
HALO Group http://www.thehalogroup.com
 
Now we've got a serious disagreement, Justin. Technology can never substitute for expertise. If someone is not competent with a firearm, the gizmos mean he can miss more times before reloading. Spray and pray is not a viable alternative in HD.

Take Joe Average with his 870. He goes after doves,squirrels, and rabbits with it.He takes it out a couple of time each year to shoot some clays with his buddies, and stokes it up with field loads in between. He's no Gunsite Grad, but he can operate that weapon in the dark,has built muscle memory and any burglar coming in has a serious problem. And, since he's not only used to the weapon, but has years of safe operation behind him, he's dangerous only to the right people.

I trained hundreds of rookies to shoot, and did the yearly requals also. Only those folks that shot shotguns recreationally moved past bare minimum competence,regardless of equipment.

On another note, in between getting that stuff for your Dad's 870, I hope you and him are going out and shooting some. I sure wish my Dad was still around so he could beat the pants offa me at trap or clays. He was the best wing shot I've ever seen.
 
Dave,

Guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I disagree that the average gun owner even has that sort of competence with his or her weapon. I posit out of the 70 (?) million gun owners, most are the "buy the gun and stick it in the closet" or "buy the gun, shoot a few rounds during hunting season (the bulk of those scant rounds to sight in) and stick it in the closet" type.

All you have to do is to truck down to your local public range and see how the four rules of safety hold up. If those people can't get the safety rules straight, how are they competent to use a gun in a defensive situation?

This has happened to me more than once and I've really cut down on my range time at public ranges. Had one guy point a SIG P228 directly at me and my buddies (from about 3 yards away), in the course of him "showing us how they gripped handguns in the Navy". We got the "don't worry, it's not loaded" excuse.

And I remember one Jeff Cooper Commentary where he (or one of his Gunsite grads) saw an individual with a very nice Weatherby rifle "sighting in" at the range. The guy didn't have any iron sights or a scope on his rifle!

Thus, for those persons, every advantage (in equipment or otherwise) is useful. They desperately need some sort of training but they're not going to get it. Those of them which are out on the skeet fields and practicing regularly are few indeed. I belong to a private club with over 1,300 members. I go to the range on weekends and some weekdays and it's like I'm in a ghost town.

And even for those with training and competence, you wonder why those persons prefer Scattergun Tech guns with the extended magazine tubes and Sidesaddles -- if they're so competent and trained, why do they use those equipment crutches? Same reason as the rest of us (trained or not) -- in a defensive situation, we'll all take whatever advantages we can get. And there's no good reason to limit those advantages, which is exactly what Remington is doing to you and me.

I'm sure we're cluttering up the topic here so since I don't see an e-mail address for you, just drop me a line at the addresses above. Otherwise, I think it's "agree to disagree" time and further discussion is moot.

It has been a long and arduous track with my dad. When I was growing up, he (and my mom) were rather anti-gun. I thought that was strange, since he had served in wartime and my mom had mandatory military training as well. So I didn't have any guns while growing up, only a few air rifles. Only recently (now that I'm almost ten years out of high school) has he warmed up to the idea of having a gun so he expressed an interest in buying a gun -- and so I bought him one. We do need to go shooting more often, that is true.

Justin
 
Can't go wrong with the 870 its reliable and accurate. Excellent general purpose shotgun. Tons of cheap accessories.

I have a Winchester 1300 Shadow that has been a perfect deer, pheasant, trap, coyote, and HD gun.

Shok
 
OK, Justin we can disagree. I still like you(G)...

Good point about Joe Average,10 years of instruction left me with plenty of horror stories. However, there's plenty of competent shotgunners out there.

And, most folks,even past tyro status, could use some lessons. I'll never be a great wing shot on my own.Until I get expert instruction, I doubt I'll ever improve significantly. On sporting clays ranges, folks with Perazzis don't point at me and snicker, but that's because I'm big and armed(G).

As for what semi trained folks will do in combat,I've some experience there. Many of the ones you'd think would not be effective, are, and vice versa.


And serious types may want all the goodies on their 870s,doesn't Itzhak Perlman play a real Stradivarius?

Finally, I'm not crazy about letting my E address out publicly. Had to deal with an Animal Rights psycho some time ago.

Shok, glad you found the shotgun of your dreams.Good luck and good hunting..
 
After owning every shotgun listed here, I spent the money, waited the 9 months it took to arrive, and now own a Benelli M1 Super90 Combat. I should have saved the thousands spent on other shotguns and bought this one first. It is simply a masterpiece of firearms engineering, jamproof, super fast cycle time ( first empty still airborne when the last one clears the chamber) low recoil, light weight, easy to field strip, cannot say enough about it! If you have the wherewithall to afford one....DO IT.

------------------
Either learn to hit what you aim at, or take track lessons.
 
Dave, I know what you mean about giving out your e-mail. Since I cruise rec.guns and a lot of boards, I figure the damage is already done for me.

When I was still affiliated with the Penn Law School Second Amendment Society, I got these e-mails from antis in Britain, lamenting tragedies like Dunblane and the like -- and asking me how I could support gun rights. I tried to educate them, really I did. :)

In any event, it has been a pleasure discussing the merits of the defensive shotgun with you.

Justin

[This message has been edited by jthuang (edited February 23, 2000).]
 
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