Which of these three penetrate the most?

T

tyro

New member
Which of the following will penetrate the most in the case of a self-defense shooting? The revolver to be used is an SP101:

125 grain Remington Golden Saber 38 Special (+P) Brass Jacketed HP.

125 grain Winchester Silvertip (aluminum jacket) 38 Special (+P) HP.

158 grain Nyclad Federal Premium 38 Special (+P) SWC-HP.
 
Scientifically, the heavier bullet should penetrate more. Also, the harder, pointier bullet should penetrate more. That being said, I'd go with the 158 semi wadcutter.
 
Greeting's All,

I believe the Remington 125 grain JHP Golden Saber's
would penetrate more; due to their sectional denisty.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, Life Member N.R.A.
 
Damage is one thing, penetration another. As a general rule the heavier bullet will penetrate farther, as it should have more energy retention that the smaller.
An extreme example: do you think a golf ball or bowling ball will penetrate farther, if shot at the same velocity into the same medium?
 
Which One?

Good Question.

On Dale Towert's Stopping Power Page, there's an interesting comparision.

http://www.evanmarshall.com/towert/penetration.htm

In inches of plywood, here's the results;

(.357 magnum)

158 gr SWC 4.0"
145 gr silvertip 3.0"
125 gr SJHP 2.5"
--158 gr JHP 2.2"--
110 gr JHP 1.8"

(for comparision, .38 special)
158 gr SWC 2.3"
125 gr JHP +P 1.7"
110 gr JHP +P 1.4"
158 gr SWC-HP +P 1.3"

Keep in mind two things. A heavy object and a lighter object moving at the same speed, the heavier object will have the more kenetic energy when it impacts something. The trouble with this is that we have no idea what the relative speed of the objects are. Typically, one can make the lighter weight bullets tavel faster, and some times a lot faster! For instance, if you load a .357 110 grain JHP with Alliant's Blue Dot powder, you can make the bullet go over 2,000 fps with 33,800 psi for the barrel . On the otherhand, using 2400 powder, one can make a 300 gr LSWC go 1,600+ at 34,000 psi. How fast were the bullet's taveling? Would a 110 grain bullet flying at 2,000 fps penatrate farther than a LSWC traveling at 1,000 fps? Which brings me to my second point.

Bullet Design. Notice how the 158 gr SWC went 4.0" in and the 158 gr JHP only went in 2.2"? Does this strike anyone else as a curious thing? Obviously a JHP bullet is designed to open up and expand and thus loses energy. For self defence work, you want a bullet that does not over penetrate (ei- bullet go through the bad guy, hit's good guy or girl behind bad guy!). So if you want something that penetrates, stick with FMJ or hardcast lead. But if you want a self defence round, pick a hollow point bullet.

Hope this helps!
 
But if you want a self defence round, pick a hollow point bullet.
Click to expand...
All three cartridges under the question at the beginning of this thread have hollow point bullets. I'm not clear as to what Dale Towert's Stopping Power Page indicates regarding these three options.
 
I've been studying the same issue.

I keep coming across situations where all else being equal, Remington loads their stuff to hotter velocities. And *that* makes a difference too.

In this particular comparison, both Winchester and Federal have a rep for lukewarm loadings at best, especially Winchester. So I'd scratch the Silvertip, and on reflection, I'm curious about how the Golden Saber will work. I've discounted it in the past for snubbie duty because it's a "delayed expansion" type with a more rigid than usual brass jacket. At snubbie velocities, I still don't think it'll expand but it might indeed punch deep. In front of a .357 powder charge, I'll bet it'd be hell on wheels.

The load I've been most eager to play with is Remington's version of the 158+P SWC-HP. While it doesn't have Federal's fancy-butt Nyclad coat, I'll betcha Remington will put a healthy dose of powder behind it :).
 
Hey Jim,
Check Remingtons website: The velocity listed for 125 GS is only 1220. I called them to ask why so slow. They said that the load was geared particulary towards use in snubbies, so it didn't do any good to try and go hotter. All you would get was more muzzle blast without any velocity increase.(Obviously not the case with a 6" barrel.)
 
Thanks, Jim.

At snubbie velocities, I still don't think it'll expand but it might indeed punch deep. In front of a .357 powder charge, I'll bet it'd be hell on wheels.
Click to expand...
I'm trying to decide whether to carry Winchester .357 Silvertips, or one of the three 38 Special +P loads, in the SP101.

It's a trade off between more managable firing sequences with the 38s and the more difficult to manage power of the .357. I can handle the .357s in the SP101, but it like riding a bucking horse versus a tame horse - the latter being more managable.
 
I'm not sure that all that supposed testing is worth a fart. There are just too many varriables
in guns AND 'targets' for any of it to carry
weight, I M H O . If I were you I'd keep in mind
that 2 shots , well placed, would be all that you need OR get to squeeze-off. PRACTICE....or you
can get a whimpy 9mm and spray. Best....dewey
 
ok, let me try this again - sorry-

Which of the following rounds will penetrate the most?

38 special inches of wood penatrated

158 gr SWC-HP+P 1.3"
125 gr JHP +P 1.7"

Now, I'm taking a wild guess that the 158 gr SWC-HP +P is your Federal Nyclad round. No, I have no idea which bullet was tested for the 125 gr JHP +P. But based on my previous discussion, if both bullets are about the same weight, I'd rather sure that the FASTER bullet would penetrate further than the slower one.

Looking at the web pages for the two companys;

Silvertip 38 +P goes 945fps
Golden Saber 38 +P goes 970fps

Wow, looks like there both about the same. So guess how big of a difference there would be between the two would be??

Also, to help you a little more, on that link that I last listed on the home page, is a list of effectiveness in real life shootings (or as best as statistic's can provide). Check them out.

http://evanmarshall.com/towert/stoppingpowerfigures.htm
 
One More Thing (honest!)

Tyro;

Give the .357 125 gr. rounds a try. In the .357, full power (2,000fps) 110 grain rounds seem to buck a fair amount less than the full power 158 gr. rounds (at 1600-ish fps). The lower power 125 grains at 1,200ish fps should be a step up from the .38+P and not a step over. Ultimatly, it's your money though so pick what you feel you be the best off with.
 
Maximus, those published velocities on the Silvertip and GS in .38+P are for 4" tubes. I was looking at the Winchester online data just a few days ago.

Snubbies are a whole 'nuther matter, esp. in .38Spl.

All else being equal an unjacketed round like most of the 158s (or a Nyclad which is just an unjacketed round dipped in plastic) will expand at lower speed versus anything jacketed.

That's why we trust the 158+Ps in snubbies.

That was interesting regarding the Remington 125 Golden Saber in .357 not being that quick. IF it'll pull over 1,200fps from a 2" barrel, then I'd agree it's probably a good load. But if that's a 4" spec, and they're using a thick jacket on a low-speed round, bad idea.

Finally, I find the Marshal/Sanow data interesting, but not something I'd 100% stake my life on.
 
Hey Jim,
I'll try to find a chrono, as I carry 125 GS in my 2 1/4" sp101. If not I'll try to get remington to answer an e-mail about their test barrel length. The stuff's got to be hotter than +p 38, just from watching the effects on water jugs etc. I took some of both out to see if there's a difference with the short barrel. Just from observation I would say the 357 is still a lot hotter, even with the short barrel.
 
Thanks, Jim and Maximus.

So, I take it that the Federal Nyclad 158 gr 38 Special +P is the best choice of the three (for a 2" SP101) . . . ?
 
Ben,

I posted the above before reading you last post. I am intrigued with the 125 gr GS. I will be anticipating results of your chrono tests, and or info from Remington.
 
Tyro.... here it is.

Speaking penetration only:

The fastest projectile (all things being equal) will penetrate best on a single "hard" surface. A wall, a car door, a window, a ballistic vest.

The projectile with the most momentum (all things being equal) will penetrate the furthest in a homologous "soft" medium. Water, ballistic gelatin, wood, bodies, sand, wet newspaper.

Bullet shape has a secondarily important function. Maximus' information regarding the 158 SWC vs the 158 HP SWC penetration shows the solid SWC holding it's shape better. Boring a hole instead of expanding.

Please: Penetration is not particularly a good sign of defensive efficiency.

I suggest you try the 158 SWCHP normal pressure first. Or the + P if you feel more frisky.
 
Thanks, Archie. I have been practicing with all three cartridges listed in the original question - all of which are tame in the SP101, compared to .357 magnum loads.
 
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