Which OF THESE CARTRIDGES for Bear?

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Listen to SGT K. Pepper spray will work better on a bear in an attack situation than almost any gun. period. According to Alaska Fish and Game State Troopers.

Small black bears shot with very large rifles often travel up to 100 yards.

Get a gun for people and pepper spray for bears.
 
If you've got to carry a semi-auto, I'd go with the 10mm, or a .45 Super. Personally, I carry a S&W (SORRY!) .41 Mountain Gun loaded with H&G Keith Type 225gr (Hardcast in pure Lin-o-Type) over 21gr of WW296 for circa 1,300fps.

The National Park Service has put out a bear Alert for the Parks. They recommend that you carry pepper spray and wear small bells to alert the bears to your presence and give them time to vacate the area. If the bear persists in its agressive behavior, then resort to the pepper spray.

They also recommend that you familiarize yourself with the differences in the scats between black & grizzly bears. Black bear scat is smaller, and contains berry seeds and small animal bones & fur. Grizzly bear scat is bigger, contains small bells & smells like pepper spray.

Yr. Obt. Svnt.

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Fred J. Drumheller
NRA Life
NRA Golden Eagle
 
Whiskey:

Yup, that's what I do. Pepper spray where it can be rapidly deployed and a pistol (the one I like) in case I want to make some noise.
 
Just keep in mind that brown bears attack because of territory. Black bears attack because they're hungry.
I still don't understand these threads:
"Uh, I might get eaten by a bear and I'm going to buy a gun to protect myself" which is always followed by some unreasonable limitation on the caliber or size as if these things were more important than their life.
Even if the chances of getting attacked are only 3%, what's the point of buying a gun that *might* work instead of one that WILL?

-for the "my grandpa once killed a grizzly with a BB gun," right and JFK was killed by one bullet.

[This message has been edited by tackdriver (edited May 05, 2000).]
 
(frown on face) If I must limit myself to you choices than I'd pick the .45acp. Don't worry about it too much, though. Under gunned is under gunned.

But you are kidding yourself if you believe it is adequate for bear defense. I have yet to read about the "calmly executed, well placed shot delivered at twenty paces" which ended an attack by a bear. I have read numerous accounts on how lighting fast the attack will come and how the odds of getting more than two very fast shots off are slim. If you are serious, start at the .41 magnum and look upward in power from there.

Someone will state that Alaskan law enforcement has done studies on what can kill their brown bears. Under situations similar to those encountered while hunting, a perfectly placed .38 will do the job. So the bear experts in Alaska all carry .38s, right? No. The Alaskan Fish and Wildlife employees are issued .44 magnums and .45-70 lever actions with powerful cartridges.
 
Erik,

I do understand what you're saying, but there is a lot of difference between a brownie and a black bear. While I might not be overjoyed at it, I would take any duty sidearm above .38 Special, and feel reasonably protected against black bears. A .357 or .41 Tracker will be lightweight and plenty potent for the threats likely to be encountered...and, if Doug decides he doesn't like that .41, he can sell it to me. :)
 
I have to ask...how many of you guys think you can stop a charging grizzly bear without a central nervous system hit with a .44 magnum?

Next question same as the first but a black bear.

Last question...suppose you were being stalked by a black bear and the bear kept following you. You stop and the bear is forty yards away licking his lips. How many of you think you could convince the bear to go for Italian "take out" at the nearest dumpster rather than eat your a$$ for lunch if you were armed with a .45 automatic?

I am really curious about this so please respond and be nice.
 
Tackdriver, etc.,

I'm tired of admitting over and over again that these cartridges are not ideal. I said "least inadequate" in my original question. I'm much more likely to need to use the gun against a human or mountain lion. I'm not looking for the perfect "bear gun." I'm trying to figure out which caliber available in a very compact, lightweight, rust-resistant hangun would give the best penetration in the very unlikely event that I ever DO need to shoot a bear.

By your logic, I shouldn't wear seatbelts when I drive because they aren't 100% effective in protecting me from injury in an accident.

Think of it this way, suppose you do wake up in the night with a 250LB black bear chewing on your leg. Would you rather (a) think, "well, nothing short of a .41 mag is really adequate for this situation anyway, so I'm glad I didn't waste may effort hauling that puny .45ACP along", or (b) empty the .45 into the bear as fast as you can. Maybe an unrealistic situation. But when things go bump in the night, it's comforting to have ANY gun close by.

Why do the police carry hanguns rather than shotguns or assault rifles all the time? Would anyone RATHER have a handgun in a gunfight? I doubt it. But they make the compromise for day-to-day comfort and convenience. I'm willing to make a similar compromise. And any police officer is probably much more likely to exchange shots with a bad guy than I am to have to shoot a bear.

Regarding the comment about "killing a bear with a bb gun", I assume this relates to my mention of my friend who killed a black bear with a .22 pistol. Believe what you want. I guess the bear hadn't read enough gun magazines to realize that nothing short of a magnum could hurt him. Too bad for him. (But I still wouldn't advocate or want to try this - I'm just telling what happend).

Doug
 
Let's try one more time at this. Possibly I'm missing the point?

If I were traveling in the woods where I knew the possibility existed that I may encounter a bear, black or otherwise, that may have hostile intentions toward me, and if I could legally carry a handgun, I would give serious consideration to something along the lines of the S&W Mountain Gun in .44 Magnum or even .45 Colt with one of the new ultra modern loadings available.

The Mountain gun is in the same size/weight catagory as most full size .45 ACP's. It is smaller than my G20/10MM. It can be carried comfortably in a hip holster or even a day pack but access in the pack would be slow.

If I did encounter a bear, hopefully it would be a black bear and not a grizzly.

It would be more than enough for mountain lion and any human threat.

In '95 I hunted the Grand Teton National Park for elk during the elk reduction program hunt. My rifle of choice was a .340 Whby. Magnum and we were not allowed to carry a handgun on national park property.

The week prior to our arrival, a hunter was mauled by a grizzly after he was hit three times with a .375 H&H while attacking the hunter over an elk carcus.

The National Park Service issued several warnings that year in regard to the increased danger of encounters with grizzlies. I felt confident with the .340 while in the woods but still there was that question in my mind, would it stop the bear if he wanted my downed elk?

As for being in your tent at night and having a bear come into camp, there are procedures for storing food, etc. that should always be followed to help minimize attracting bears but they do not work 100% of the time.

If you must carry a handgun for this purpose, carry one of adequate power not one to just piss the bear off.

Like I said in my first post, I have killed two black bear while hunting and both with handguns. Both were very calm up until the point that I shot them and then they turned into a different animal. I can only imagine what a grizzly would do.

Leave the small, easy to carry pocket pistols at home when in the woods and carry a real gun. In the case of bears, just having a gun, any gun, compared to no gun at all is just not enough.

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Jim - NRA Life Member

www.geocities.com/jimc_07874/home.html
 
DougB,
Sorry to come off like an A-hole. I can't remember the last time I read a gun magazine. My point was, if you can carry a .44mag that weighs the same as a 1911, why not carry it? Do you already have guns in the calibers you mentioned? Do you reload? Anyway to answer your question specifically, I'd say the .45.
If I saw a black bear stalking me, I would try to spook it before I shot it. If that didn't work, then I would go for the CNS shot. Pull a South Park, "Quick, shoot... it's charging!" Just make sure it isn't a casual encounter or the conservation people will be on your @ss.
 
Tackdriver,

No harm done or offense taken. I must admit, all the responses recommending more pwerful handguns have got me reconsidering the Taurus Titaniam Tracker in .41 mag or the Glock 29 in 10MM (not equivalent, I realize, but both more capable than the handguns I'd really rather carry).

I do reload, and I have an old Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 Mag that I have carried when traveling in bear country on horseback. But when backpacking, canoing, or fishing in areas where bears are less common, I'm just not willing to lug all that weight. In these situations, I usually carry a small, lightweight, 4" .357 that I've used for this purpose for years. It's a Charter Arms "Target Bulldog" that I bought for backpacking. It weighs about 20oz or so. But it has a few mechanical problems and is not particularly rust-resistant. I was thinking of upgrading to something smaller, lighter, and more rust-resistant that would provide approximately the same level of power. I'd like something weighing around 16oz. I'm not aware of any .44 mag even close to this weight, and frankly, I don't think I'd want to shoot it if there is one.

I also have a couple of 9mms, but no .40, 10mm, or .45ACP. If I had these, I'd probably line up some boards and find out for myself which penetrates best. Many are recommending the .45, but I can't help but wonder if a .40 or .357Sig might not penetrate better with the right loading if I ever did have to shoot a bear.

I agree 100% with your assessment of how to handle a bear encounter. I think that black bears (the ONLY kind I'm worried about) can usually be scared off pretty easily, and avoided by storing food properly, etc.

Doug
 
Interesting thread here folks, and a lively discussion to boot!
FWIW, I have a 4" 629 (.44mag) that I purchased for backwoods travel in grizzly country (primarily Montana/Idaho). I love this gun, great action and very accurate, and it'll pack a good punch with 300gr. hardcast, but it's still a heavier (50 oz. loaded) and bigger package than I would want to lug around when in black bear/cougar country.
I heartily agree with the pepper spray as a first line deterrent, and would seriously reccomend backing that up with a lighter weight revolver(like a Tracker) in .41mag or loaded up with real toasty .44spec handloads in heavy bullet weights.
Blackies are more likely to come your way for fodder than fight. If they're after your camp grub, the pepper spray might help drive them off. But, and that is a big but, they aren't dissuaded by that, the Tracker might come in real handy.
Years ago, when I was young and foolish,I had a close encounter of the bear kind (6' or so, and way too close for comfort) when I discovered a blackie munching on my camp chow. It was getting on toward dusk, and I had just stepped away from camp (in the Shenandoah NP, Virginia) for a few minutes to rinse off in a nearby pool. When I returned, I was unpleasantly surprised by the bear munching away at my grub bag (ready to be tree-hung for the night). He saw me first (it ws good and dark by then), and the low growl he uttered was more felt than heard (like the distant rumble of thunder, now THAT'S an experience!). Needless to say, I gave ground, and had no recourse but to retreat to the tent, hoping that he didn't feel the need to socialize further. It was a National Park, so I had no sidearm with me (verboten), and it didn't make for the most restful night.
If the situation were likely to repeat itself these days (especially with my wife to look after), I'd be packing bear-strength pepper spray and a discretely carried but readily available firearm with a good punch. My own preference runs to revolvers (although I grew up on automatics)for nearly absolute reliability, in a solid caliber, i.e. .41 mag or HOT .44spec. at a minimum. If you practice good camp/food control (hang food in trees, cook and wash up at a safe distance from your tent, etc.), chances of meeting Mr. Bear are reduced, but there are some people-habituated bears out there that will just not give up ground.
Anyone that feels they can predict what EVERY bear will do or not do, EVERYTIME, should probably stay out of the woods. Go safely, but go prepared.

Good trompin' to you all.

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"...that government of the people, by the people, and for the people, shall not perish from the earth." Abraham Lincoln,The Gettysburg Address, November 19, 1863.
"Once more into the breach, dear friends, or close the wall up with our English dead".Henry V
 
Why Artie McAulley will never visit the American Colony again.


Young Artie, half step nephew in law of Enus McAnus III, during summer hollidays, took the oppurnity to visit with kin in the State of Utah, Colony of America. After the grueling grind of the studies at the University of Edinburg, a respite from the flatland fillys would be welcome.

Artie stayed with remote cousin Mordaci McMerkle and his wee tribe just abaft o the tiny town of Clear Creek. The town was in a National forrest and at an elevation of well over a mile. Game abounded, the air was so clear that one could not see what they were breathin and the altitude did wonders to the brain when augmented with a wee drap o single malt.

Artie took to takin lang walks in the forrest, armed with camera, assorted lenses, lunch, monocular, sketch pad, thumpin stick, and the many other accuterments attendant to bein a tourist. Mordaci gave Artie a pair of military style trousers with the many and voluminous pockets. Artie bein a slim lad; encountered problems keepin the trousers up, especialy toward the end o the dy when the pockets were loaded with rocks, cones and other pretties. Holdin em up with a belt was not the answer due to the chaffing on his hips from the weight. The answer seemed to be a pair o industrial strength braces ( suspenders ) obtained from a building supply merchant.

The time flew and the days were glorious and rife with new and wonderous experiences till the suspenders literly let Artie down and cost him a bundle o money.

It seems that the call of nature struck, Artie flipped the fronts off o the suspenders and hunkered over a down log to deficate in the woods. Along came a black bear, Artie jumped up, the suspenders had a double problem, first they were firmly hooked to a branch on the ground and secondly they were under the new pile. The suspenders stretched mightely then released; slinging a great gob of fresh dung against the back of Arties head. The black bear observed this and understood, twas an older bear with a weak heart and it promptly died laughing. With uncanny timelyness, along came a Government Game Keeper who cited Artie for killin the bear out of season, in a National Forest, without a license etc. Verra expensive.

From then on Artie stays close ta his homeland and lets the bears do the shyttin in the woods.
 
Whateverr for a handgun but make sure you take pepper spray.They bear will need it for seasoning while he is eating you.

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beemerb
We have a criminal jury system which is superior to any in the world;
and its efficiency is only marred by the difficulty of finding twelve men
every day who don't know anything and can't read.
-Mark Twain
 
I would go with the 357sig. A very powerfull
bullet with , good accuracy.
Just down the street last week a woman had to shoot a male black bear, that was wandering to close to her kids.
See carry's a 357Mag and got off one shot,
hit the bear In the neck and the bear walked 15 feet and was dead.
The bear wighed 250LB she was able to keep the meat but the hide went to the animal control.


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www.vote.com
also for gun accessorys. http://gungoodies.com
 
Y'ota check out Bob Millik's (?) old story involving bounsin six .357 mag bullets off the skull of a POd blackie afore you rely on one of those sub-caliber guns!


Yr. Obt. Svnt.

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Fred J. Drumheller
NRA Life
NRA Golden Eagle
 
A word on the differences between brown and black bears. More and more information is coming out that black bears are more likely to prey on humans than previously thought. So now there are three common reasons bears attack:

1. They are spooked. (Browns and blacks.)

2. They have cubs. (Brows and blacks.)

3. They want to eat you. (Blacks.)

So... Either species, tis better to err on the side of too much gun. Which of course a pistol round NEVER is.
 
When I was in your position I had the same problem of weight and wanted power...

As I was trekking in the swamps of central Florida for about 7 months, spending the nights there and often away from my vehicle for a week or more I was well aware of every ounce I carried.

Because black bear, hogs, cats, snakes, bulls, and gators were all potential antagonists... I eventually arrived at a cut down 12 gauge pump carried in a vertical plastic tube holster, lined with thin leather, between my small pack and my back. It was only 4 shots, the magazine, barrel, and stock shortened to about 20 inches long. I never saw a bear, cat, gator, pig or any other critter that I had to shoot -- but the longer I was out and the more hot scat I saw in the morning and the more fresh tracks I saw... the more serious I got about carrying something potent!!!!!!!!!!! The permit for the 12 gauge "pistol" was reasonable in Florida... about $200 as I recall. The gun was FAST to get out of the back holster with a single long pull while the pack was on and because of being attached to my pack it seemed weightless compared to a pistol on my belt.

NOW............. Finally to answer your question.... I would go with one of older double stack magazine large and long Glock .45s loaded with your choice +P+ -- mostly for emotional reasons; in that the larger capacity magazine feels good in the night and it saves you from having to carry an added mag somewhere. You might consider also the Blazer ammo with aluminum cases for the greatly reduced weight in the loaded pistol.

However

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Talk is cheap; Free Speech is NOT.
 
Pepper spray vs Bear.
While back I read of trial using pepper spray to drive off NON threatining bears. Seems the noise of the applicator had more influence on the bears than the caspicum.
Few years ago a friend of mine went to his storage yard and found a bit of clothing, a little blood and an exhausted but well chewed pepper spray cannister. His guard dog appeared pleased with himself. LEO synopsis was that perp went over the fence, sprayed dog, dog tried to eat perp who went back over fence, dog then tried to eat pepper spray can.
Good dog.

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Sam I am, grn egs n packin

Nikita Khrushchev predicted confidently in a speech in Bucharest, Rumania on June 19, 1962 that: " The United States will eventually fly the Communist Red Flag...the American people will hoist it themselves."
 
This thread has finally reached the 100K point. If you can bear it, anyone is welcome to start part 2, or you can just wait for a month and someone else will start it anew...
 
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