Which is more robust? RH, SRH or SBH.

[Pond James Pond]

It's mostly academic.

I think this is the most important for me.

Although the Redhawk is the one I shoot most regularly, I still think I have only shot about 7-800 rounds since I bought it just under 2 years ago, so I can't imagine that I'll be wearing it out anytime soon.

The same could be said for my possible future choice.

 

[44 AMP]

"all things being equal after 100K bazillion rounds" the Blackhawk might be in better shape...

yes, I think that pretty much sums it up.

The design of the single action usually means that it will take a higher number of rounds than a DA gun, before needing a "tune up". But its not something that ordinary shooters see very often. It could be DA gun a will need retiming after 25k rounds, and SA gun B, after 28.5k, for example. (numbers pulled from thin air for illustration only, order before midnight, not valid in all 50 states...)

As a practical matter, if you can afford to shoot enough to wear one of these guns out, you can afford to have them fixed or replaced when that happens.

 

[Ruger480]

It can get worse.

LOL. It will get worse

 

[Guv]

How is a cylinder with flutes as strong as a cylinder without them? I personally don't care for unfluted cylinders looks wise. Even the Ruger website lists the frame extension as an upgrade as far as strength is concerned. One item I will agree on is the relative insignificance of the difference between the 3 frames. Ross Sefreid use to shoot some real bombs out of converted Blackhawks.

 

[Sevens]

I don't have the metallurgical experience or the education to even suggest that a fluted cylinder can be (or is?) as strong as an unfluted cylinder, but I would suggest this: a fluted cylinder (theoretically) has the better ability to dissipate HEAT which can be one enemy of strength.

It's an interesting discussion, I would like to hear more about it.

 

[44flattop]

How is a cylinder with flutes as strong as a cylinder without them?

Because the weakest point is at the bolt cut. Every cylinder you see that has let go, it began at the bolt notch. Flutes have absolutely no bearing on strength.

Even the Ruger website lists the frame extension as an upgrade as far as strength is concerned.

Of course they do, it's called marketing. If you really believe that the frame extension results in any practical difference in strength, then please explain how that works.

Ross Seyfried use to shoot some real bombs out of converted Blackhawks.

Apples and oranges. Big difference between factory guns and hand-built customs.

 

[feets]

First, let me say that I loves me some 45 Colt.

A need has arisen to dispel some untruths...

1) A Super Blackhawk is nothing more than a Blackhawk with a different grip frame. See the Vaquero above? Being an early 90s large frame design it is the same frame (except for the sight groove) used on the Super Blackhawk. I can remove a few screws and slap a Super Blackhawk grip frame on that gun. Call it a Super Vaquero.
There is no difference in the cylinder materials or dimensions. Barrels screw on and don't really contribute to the strength of the design.

2) Redhawks and Super Redhawks do not have the same cylinder materials when you get to the 454 and 480. Ruger switched to the Carpenter 465 steel on those. 44 magnum variants are made of the standard materials.
The Redhawk has the regular Ruger blend of stainless steel in all calibers.

3) The Super Redhawk uses a different blend of Carpenter stainless for the 454 (maybe 480) barrels. It was developed to limit forcing cone erosion from the insane pressures of the 454. The material offered good machining properties while being tough enough to stand up to the cartridge. 44 Magnum barrels use standard steel.

4) The Super Redhawk cylinder measures 1.748" long.
The Redhawk cylinder measures 1.748" long.
The Vaquero cylinder measures 1.699" long.

That's less than one half of one tenth of an inch long. It's thinner than the rim on a 45 Colt case. Thinner than the crimp groove on a bullet. I don't know what you're planning on doing with that tiny amount of space.

5) The Super Redhawk cylinder is 1.792" in diameter.
The Redhawk cylinder is 1.780" in diameter.
The Vaquero cylinder is 1.727" in diameter.

If you want to tell me there will be an appreciable difference in strength in .012" of diameter I'm going to chuckle at your expense. That makes a .006" per side difference. When a gun goes high order it's not due to 300 psi or even 1000 psi. It's going to be a whole magnitude higher. The tiny difference here is negligible. Only the material makes the difference.

Stepping down to the Vaquero/Blackhawk cylinder makes a bit of a difference. Still, if you're relying on .035" of an inch of steel to save your bacon remind me to not go shooting with you.

6) All cylinders have the notches in the same place. That place would be just off center of the bore. The single action guns rotate backwards so the scallop is on the opposite side of the notch. Since it is not as deep as the notch it offers no appreciable impact on strength.

7) The SRH and RH cylinders lock up the same way. 3 points of contact each. Whether that is stronger than the straight through base pin of the Blackhawk is up for some debate. It would take considerable research to reach a scientifically acceptable answer.

8) The Blackhawk/Vaquero grip angle allows the gun to slide in the hand under severe recoil. It will try to rip your wrist off but the rotation imparts less torque on the body.
The RH acts much like the single actions in that the gun rotates under fierce recoil. It doesn't move as much so there is a bit more sting. The bulk of the gun (when compared to my shorter Vaquero) dampens the impact.
The SRH does not rotate like the others. The rubber grip holds onto your hand and results in more torque being applied to the wrist. The Sorbothane insert cushions the blow but is too narrow for my wide palm. I get hit with a 1/2" wide hammer the height of the grip when launching heavy loads.

9) The 7-1/2" Super Blackhawk Hunter weighs 52 ounces.
The 7-1/2" Redhawk weighs 53 ounces.
The 7-1/2" Super Redhawk weighs 53 ounces.
Weight distribution on the first two leaves them a bit nose heavy and a touch more resistant to flipping recoil while the SRH is more balanced in the hand and more lively under recoil.


Want to have some fun and toss the Contender in the mix?

With the scope it is a bench gun. It requires support for well aimed shots.
It is lighter than the RH/SRH without the scope. The lack of a cylinder gap means EVERYTHING the cartridge is packing goes down the bore. Recoil is fierce when loaded hot. Accuracy is outstanding with the Match Grade Machine barrel.

As for absolute strength, I can honestly say that all of these guns are more of a man than I am.

For long distance shots my accuracy runs in this order:
1) Contender by a substantial margin.
2) Super Redhawk
3) Vaquero
4) Redhawk

More trigger time with the Redhawk would probably slip it above the Vaquero and into a fight with the SRH.


All this is probably more than you guys wanted but that's my take on the Rugers with a ringer thrown in.

 

[44flattop]

If you want to tell me there will be an appreciable difference in strength in .012" of diameter I'm going to chuckle at your expense.

Chuckle all you like but the Redhawk is safe for loads ~20,000psi higher (32k vs 50k) than those for the Blackhawk.

I don't know what you're planning on doing with that tiny amount of space.

There are cast bullets and loads available that are specifically designed for the Redhawk's longer cylinder. Some have two crimp grooves, one for Redhawks and one for everything else.

The Super Redhawk cylinder is 1.792" in diameter.
The Redhawk cylinder is 1.780" in diameter.

Might want to check your calipers because the two guns use the same cylinders.

The SRH and RH cylinders lock up the same way. 3 points of contact each. Whether that is stronger than the straight through base pin of the Blackhawk is up for some debate. It would take considerable research to reach a scientifically acceptable answer.

The difference here is the crane. You are free to contact Hamilton Bowen and voice your dissent.

The RH acts much like the single actions in that the gun rotates under fierce recoil.

Recoil is 100% subjective but I don't find this to be the case at all. The RH acts like any other double action and transmits more recoil straight back into the palm. The SRH being much more comfortable due to a better grip design (not Hogues).

 

[feets]

If you want to tell me there will be an appreciable difference in strength in .012" of diameter I'm going to chuckle at your expense.

Chuckle all you like but the Redhawk is safe for loads ~20,000psi higher (32k vs 50k) than those for the Blackhawk.

ummm.... That was a comparison of the Redhawk and Super Redhawk. Again, .006" in thickness of the same material will not make an appreciable difference. That's roughly twice the thickness of a human hair.
The Blackhawk was smaller.

The Super Redhawk cylinder is 1.792" in diameter.
The Redhawk cylinder is 1.780" in diameter.

Might want to check your calipers because the two guns use the same cylinders.

Wait... What?
You seriously think I would make up something as trivial as that? Perhaps you would like to come over and fit my calipers on my cylinders. I could break out the micrometer if you'd like to get precise. When would you like to get together?
Remember, I'm measuring a 454 and 45 Colt guns. The cylinders are made of different materials. One is also non-fluted which means it may not have all the turning done to it that the fluted cylinder gets. Still, this is a fairly petty issue

I don't know what you're planning on doing with that tiny amount of space.

There are cast bullets and loads available that are specifically designed for the Redhawk's longer cylinder. Some have two crimp grooves, one for Redhawks and one for everything else.

The Smith and Wesson N frame revolvers (Model 29 and such) have cylinders that are 1.705" long. They are about the same as the Blackhawk cylinders. You can slide a crimp grove far enough to make up that distance to offer maybe enough room for another grain of powder.
As a reference, the crimp grove on a Hornady XTP is .045" wide.

I did not voice any dissent towards Hamilton Bowen. I simply stated I would have to do significant research to determine the differences in strength. Those would involve computer modeling, stress analysis, and material properties to determine absolute strength.
Bowen has done real world blow-up tests and has an impressive resume. It should be safe to rely on his information for practical use.

Yes, recoil is subjective. That should be an understood thing. I can't compare a Super Blackhawk to the Redhawk because I don't have one. However, the standard grip frame is the same basic shape as the Vaquero with the exception of being slightly longer to allow the pinkie finger to do some work.

 

[Guv]

Feets,

My first taste of a really powerful hand gun was in the early 80's and it was my brother-in-laws 10" 45Colt Bull Barrel open sight Contender. 265gr gas checks and a full load of 4227 that came from the guns previous owner, I don't think we realized what kind of Tiger we had a hold of!

 

[feets]

Guv, that's a lot of boom.

Most people don't realize the difference a Contender makes. It really steps up the game.
My heavy Colt loads were moving 250 gr SSTs out of my 5-1/2" Vaquero at just over 1300 fps. That's a lot of flip in that gun.
Stuffing them in the Contender gave me just under 1600 fps.

It just turned the 45 Colt into a 454 Casull.

The old octagon 44 magnum barrels were ugly. Those bantam weight buggers would run 240s over 1600 fps. Few people wanted to hang onto those things more than once. Think of low end 454 excitement in a GP100 package. That's a whole lot of hurtin going on.

 

[44 AMP]

I've got .44 mags,.44AMP, .45 Colts, & .45 Win Mags.

Auto Mag, Desert Eagle, Wildey, LAR Grizzly, Blackhawks, Vaqueros, Super Blackhawk, S&W M 29, and Contender barrels.

The 10" octagon .44 contender is truly beauty and the beast in one package. Beauty to look at, beast to shoot. One of my least favorite guns to shoot for enjoyment.

I think what is more or most durable, and what can be pushed to the limits are interesting subjects for discussion, but don't have a lot of practical differences for most applications.

Its not quite angels dancing on the heads of pins, more like what will hold up best building a dragster. Welcome all big bore "gearheads".

 

[Guv]

Yea feets,
The only 454 we had heard of back then was a Big Block Chevy. We would get all giddy about shooting my brother-in-laws 44 Redhawk and only go to the Contender after we ran out of 44mags! Definitely didn't realize which gun was the real beast back then. And 44AMP what a perfect description, Beauty and Beast!

 

[44flattop]

You seriously think I would make up something as trivial as that? Perhaps you would like to come over and fit my calipers on my cylinders. I could break out the micrometer if you'd like to get precise. When would you like to get together?
Remember, I'm measuring a 454 and 45 Colt guns. The cylinders are made of different materials. One is also non-fluted which means it may not have all the turning done to it that the fluted cylinder gets. Still, this is a fairly petty issue

I might refer you to the OP.

What is your experience, taking the .44Mag as a common calibre?

The point being, under the parameters outlined in the OP, the Redhawk and Super Redhawk USE THE SAME CYLINDERS. Not similar or comparable but they are the same part.

 

[feets]

Dude, you just can't let it go, can you?

Relax. It'll be okay.

I didn't see anybody else here with all three guns. I happen to have all three platforms. While the holes down the middle measure .451 instead of .429 the rest of the gun is going to be awful similar.

Please note that the first thing I did was identify the caliber of the guns.

I was offering some first hand experience with a caliber of similar performance in all three platforms with measurements and a photo.

Can you do that?

No?


Alrighty then. Take this info for what it's worth or go buy all three guns and put on a little show and tell for us.

 

[44flattop]

The only point is that the cylinders on the .44's are the same. Regardless of what you measured on a .454, the .44's (and .45's) are all the same external dimensions.

Can you do that?

No?

You assume too much.

 

[feets]

Still not letting it go, eh?

If you have all three platforms why didn't you post the same info I did?
It's one thing to talk. It's another thing to demonstrate. Share the info when you ha e something to contribute.

You kinda made yourself look silly by complaining about my post without reading what I wrote.

Relax. It'll be okay. This has gone on too long.

 

[mavracer]

My answer as usual buy all three

 

[44flattop]

Share the info when you ha e something to contribute.

I thought that's what I was doing when I said THEY ARE THE SAME!!! You see, the measurements are unimportant. What is important is that the RH and SRH cylinders ARE THE SAME and that they are both larger than the Super Blackhawk. That difference allows for higher operating pressures. In a post about .44's your measuring the .454 is useless information.

You kinda made yourself look silly by complaining about my post without reading what I wrote.

I read everything you wrote. You wrote that the difference in cylinder diameter and length between the DA's and SA's was insignificant but this is simply not true.


You made yourself look silly when you played down a difference in cylinder diameter that makes gives the RH/SRH an advantage of 18,000-20,000psi higher operating pressure.

"Stepping down to the Vaquero/Blackhawk cylinder makes a bit of a difference. Still, if you're relying on .035" of an inch of steel to save your bacon remind me to not go shooting with you."

 

[feets]

Okay, last time and I'm done with your fussing.

Show me .035" thick steel that will hold 18,000 psi.

The kind of steel used is far more important than one might think. Also, how the steel is supported will play a big role.
Did you ever consider how the design of the cylinder lockup impacts the performance?

Please get a document from a metallurgy shop stating the steel in a BH and RH are the same. Then, have a study done showing how the different designs vary in strength.

I'm done with this. Your pulpit pounding is doing nothing to advance this thread.