which AR
- Thread starter gnut
- Start date
Lycanthrope
New member
Which class do you want to shoot? Standard, Tactical or Open?
http://www.uspsa.org/rules/2004RifleRulesFinal.pdf
I prefer the longer 20" for standard since it help to have a longer sight radius with open sights.
Most tactical style guns are alomost the same as the Open guns save for a smaller comp and one less optic.
That being said, the hot ticket tends to be a 18" barrelled gun made by JP, Clark, Triangle shooting, EGW or other maker, but that length isn't very common on a shelf rifle.
So....you can save your pennies to about $1200-$2000 for one of the makers listed above. Or......buy a decent shelf rifle for under $1000, wrench on a new comp and maybe an optic and go play (at very little disadvantage....
As a USPSA member you can also get a Clark Gator upper for $779 and just pin it to a Stag lower and have a nice tactical or standard gun for under $1000 with a guranteed .5 MOA capability.
http://www.uspsa.org/rules/2004RifleRulesFinal.pdf
I prefer the longer 20" for standard since it help to have a longer sight radius with open sights.
Most tactical style guns are alomost the same as the Open guns save for a smaller comp and one less optic.
That being said, the hot ticket tends to be a 18" barrelled gun made by JP, Clark, Triangle shooting, EGW or other maker, but that length isn't very common on a shelf rifle.
So....you can save your pennies to about $1200-$2000 for one of the makers listed above. Or......buy a decent shelf rifle for under $1000, wrench on a new comp and maybe an optic and go play (at very little disadvantage....
As a USPSA member you can also get a Clark Gator upper for $779 and just pin it to a Stag lower and have a nice tactical or standard gun for under $1000 with a guranteed .5 MOA capability.
I figured I would start off in standard, assuming that is an entry level. Thanks for the info. I have several buddys who purchsed off the shelf ARs to get into military long range shooting. Less than 2 months later they were all purchasing custom guns in order to be competative. I am trying to do some home work so the same thing doesn't happen to me. Thanks again.
Lycanthrope
New member
No problem. I think the Tactical class is a bit easier for most people than standard. You get one optic in Tactical and most people aren't used to shooting out 100-300 yards with irons (not too mention a good set of national match or globe sights will cost you extra anyhow).
Here's my recommendation for entry level Tactical. Get a 20" gun that is reliable and shoots 1MOA or better. I recommend a 20" gun since it will make Minor Power factor with most off the shelf ammo. You can go standard later if you want to. You can also get it cut to 18" last by a local smith if you want a gun that handles faster (depends on your local three gun courses....are they long or shot in pistol pays?) Mid weight barrel, free floated handguard and a decent brake. Either the F2 brake, PRI QC Brake or Miculek. The F2 and PRI brakes have offset holes to help prevent the recoil to clock up and to the right, but you should be able to see your hits in the scope with any of them.
Optics......for short range/pistol bay only stages, just go red dot. Aimpoint or Eotechs work well, but you really aren't undergunned with a cheapie red dot if it holds zero. For longer ranges, many choose an ACOG or a low powered variable that you can shoot close in with both eyes open. That means the low power should be about 1-3x. My Clark Gator wears a 1.5-5x Simmons Pro Diamond shotgun scope I bought for $50 and I have no need to change it.
Finally.....get a good trigger. The JP trigger or the Jewell if you like a two stage (got used to it on my CMP gun and it's no different than a 1911 two stage break anyhow).
Any gun that runs, shoots 1 MOA, has a decent trigger and fits you can win in 3 gun. You don't really need to pay for cosmetics if you don't want to. AR's are overpriced. By the time you get an off the shelf upper with a decent barrel and add a float tube and brake, you're approaching the cost of the Gator without the .5 MOA gurantee....and without the adjustable gas block and chromed bolt and carrier.
The way I did it: Gator upper for $779
RRA/Stag lower for $220
Jewell trigger for $150
Pro Diamond for $50 (but hard to find them anymore)
The way it shoots in local matches has me spending money on ammo and not on more expensive equipment.
Here's my recommendation for entry level Tactical. Get a 20" gun that is reliable and shoots 1MOA or better. I recommend a 20" gun since it will make Minor Power factor with most off the shelf ammo. You can go standard later if you want to. You can also get it cut to 18" last by a local smith if you want a gun that handles faster (depends on your local three gun courses....are they long or shot in pistol pays?) Mid weight barrel, free floated handguard and a decent brake. Either the F2 brake, PRI QC Brake or Miculek. The F2 and PRI brakes have offset holes to help prevent the recoil to clock up and to the right, but you should be able to see your hits in the scope with any of them.
Optics......for short range/pistol bay only stages, just go red dot. Aimpoint or Eotechs work well, but you really aren't undergunned with a cheapie red dot if it holds zero. For longer ranges, many choose an ACOG or a low powered variable that you can shoot close in with both eyes open. That means the low power should be about 1-3x. My Clark Gator wears a 1.5-5x Simmons Pro Diamond shotgun scope I bought for $50 and I have no need to change it.
Finally.....get a good trigger. The JP trigger or the Jewell if you like a two stage (got used to it on my CMP gun and it's no different than a 1911 two stage break anyhow).
Any gun that runs, shoots 1 MOA, has a decent trigger and fits you can win in 3 gun. You don't really need to pay for cosmetics if you don't want to. AR's are overpriced. By the time you get an off the shelf upper with a decent barrel and add a float tube and brake, you're approaching the cost of the Gator without the .5 MOA gurantee....and without the adjustable gas block and chromed bolt and carrier.
The way I did it: Gator upper for $779
RRA/Stag lower for $220
Jewell trigger for $150
Pro Diamond for $50 (but hard to find them anymore)
The way it shoots in local matches has me spending money on ammo and not on more expensive equipment.
Lycanthrope
New member
NM,
A RRA NM or CMP gun isn't the best gun to take you to Master in USPSA. The CMP guns tend to be heavy and the sights aren't optimized for that kind of shooting.
A RRA NM or CMP gun isn't the best gun to take you to Master in USPSA. The CMP guns tend to be heavy and the sights aren't optimized for that kind of shooting.
Hotdog1911
New member
Colt.
I've been listening to this question for 25 years or more-ever since the Solider of (miss) Fortune Matches in the Las Vegas area. And for those that don't or refuse to listen & learn from history or bound to repeat its mistakes.
Buy a new & stock 20 inch COLT, do no modifications until you learn how to shoot maintain the rifle. There are no short cuts. If I'm wrong, then an slightly used but unmodified stock Colt AR will have a higher re-sale price than a modified also ran AR. Or if you end up wanting a competive rifle then you can keep your stock rifle as a back-up.
I'd be bragging, agian, if I told you how many guys I beat w/ their expensive gameguns using a stock AR-15A1.
I've been listening to this question for 25 years or more-ever since the Solider of (miss) Fortune Matches in the Las Vegas area. And for those that don't or refuse to listen & learn from history or bound to repeat its mistakes.
Buy a new & stock 20 inch COLT, do no modifications until you learn how to shoot maintain the rifle. There are no short cuts. If I'm wrong, then an slightly used but unmodified stock Colt AR will have a higher re-sale price than a modified also ran AR. Or if you end up wanting a competive rifle then you can keep your stock rifle as a back-up.
I'd be bragging, agian, if I told you how many guys I beat w/ their expensive gameguns using a stock AR-15A1.
Lycanthrope
New member
You guys do know he is talking about 3 gun, don't you?
Colts run well, but taking a stock Colt to Open class would be suicide.
And a stock JP Open rifle is costing about $2400 these days without optics. Their resale is pretty darn good.
Colts run well, but taking a stock Colt to Open class would be suicide.
And a stock JP Open rifle is costing about $2400 these days without optics. Their resale is pretty darn good.
Hotdog1911
New member
Stock Colts work...
darn well in places like Iraq & on the streets of LA during the highly televisied LA Bank Shoot-Out.
Speaking of Hollywood...those bad dudes in the movie, Heat. They were pretty good and they didn't have tricked-out ARs. Back to the real world;
A stock ColtA2 with Federal Red Box 62 gr. FMJ will hold the 9 & 10 ring at 200 yards all day on the official NRA High Power Target. How many USPSA members can shoot up to this level? I'm not throwing rocks at USPSA members, I am one, I'm just making a point. It is not the trick gadjets; it's the shooter's ability & good equipment.
Signed: The White Rabbit Killer.
darn well in places like Iraq & on the streets of LA during the highly televisied LA Bank Shoot-Out.
Speaking of Hollywood...those bad dudes in the movie, Heat. They were pretty good and they didn't have tricked-out ARs. Back to the real world;
A stock ColtA2 with Federal Red Box 62 gr. FMJ will hold the 9 & 10 ring at 200 yards all day on the official NRA High Power Target. How many USPSA members can shoot up to this level? I'm not throwing rocks at USPSA members, I am one, I'm just making a point. It is not the trick gadjets; it's the shooter's ability & good equipment.
Signed: The White Rabbit Killer.
Lycanthrope
New member
I agree. Certainly a stock Colt can hold the 9 and 10 ring all day......and many USPSA shooters can do the same thing.....when the rifle is scoped in say Open or Tactical class.
A stock Colt is a good rifle, but not the best rifle for USPSA and better suited guns may even be cheaper.
A CMP gun may be too heavy for most 3 gun and carry handle A2 sights are not always welcome when you want to scope a rifle. You can also get a longer sight radius using a globe, barrel mount front sight in standard class and use the longer sight radius than the A2 configuration.
A stock Colt just isn't perhaps the best use of his money if he isn't sure about what hes shooting in the future.
A stock Colt is a good rifle, but not the best rifle for USPSA and better suited guns may even be cheaper.
A CMP gun may be too heavy for most 3 gun and carry handle A2 sights are not always welcome when you want to scope a rifle. You can also get a longer sight radius using a globe, barrel mount front sight in standard class and use the longer sight radius than the A2 configuration.
A stock Colt just isn't perhaps the best use of his money if he isn't sure about what hes shooting in the future.
Hotdog1911
New member
Lycan...
You are right on the money for guys whom have their eye soley on competetion. You are correct for competitors & trophies. Nothing wrong with that. I just my see you at a match. But... There is always a 'but'.
I think the original poster said something about protection. That's cool-I'm not splitting hairs. I'm just taking the moment to point out that if someone wants a reliable AR to do it all; reliabilty, meaning when there are no reshoots, where only hits counts, hits that will save your life, (LAPD SWAT went toe to toe with a creep wielding an AK47-and they're ready to do it some more-with anyone), you can find no reliable stock AR type rifle than a Colt.
Some ARs are more accurate. Some ARs less expensive. Some ARs are set-up better to compete with. But Colts ARs are the still the best value for someone who wants it all in one package. Yes, Colts sacrafice accuracy compared to competition HP rifle. But I've never seen an after-market AR run better than an off-the-shelf-unmodified stock Colt AR.Yes it is easier to shoot better scores in competition using a scope in a course of fire that is designed for a scoped rifle. I recommend a flat top for the AR so as to use all the advantages a scope/light/laser offers.
This post wouldn't be complete without some bragging. I've beat, (with a stock AR or M1A, using iron sights), the majority of other competitors whom were using 'tricked-out' rifles in USPSA. I seen it time and agian; aftermarket ARs, ARs that have cost a bunch more now after all the gadjets much more than a stock Colt AR, jam & malfunction repeatitly. It is a big reason why I win in about 50% of the cases where I shoot against another competitor with equal skill. Their creations, that costs a bunch more than my stock AR, jams & malfunctions and me & my stock Colt just motor right past. My competition, other competitors, rely on gadjets. I trust in good ability & equipment reliability.
Some times I take everything too seriously. It's all fun. This is what works for me. Hope it helps. Buy good ammo. Maybe I'll see you at the Range.
You are right on the money for guys whom have their eye soley on competetion. You are correct for competitors & trophies. Nothing wrong with that. I just my see you at a match. But... There is always a 'but'.
I think the original poster said something about protection. That's cool-I'm not splitting hairs. I'm just taking the moment to point out that if someone wants a reliable AR to do it all; reliabilty, meaning when there are no reshoots, where only hits counts, hits that will save your life, (LAPD SWAT went toe to toe with a creep wielding an AK47-and they're ready to do it some more-with anyone), you can find no reliable stock AR type rifle than a Colt.
Some ARs are more accurate. Some ARs less expensive. Some ARs are set-up better to compete with. But Colts ARs are the still the best value for someone who wants it all in one package. Yes, Colts sacrafice accuracy compared to competition HP rifle. But I've never seen an after-market AR run better than an off-the-shelf-unmodified stock Colt AR.Yes it is easier to shoot better scores in competition using a scope in a course of fire that is designed for a scoped rifle. I recommend a flat top for the AR so as to use all the advantages a scope/light/laser offers.
This post wouldn't be complete without some bragging. I've beat, (with a stock AR or M1A, using iron sights), the majority of other competitors whom were using 'tricked-out' rifles in USPSA. I seen it time and agian; aftermarket ARs, ARs that have cost a bunch more now after all the gadjets much more than a stock Colt AR, jam & malfunction repeatitly. It is a big reason why I win in about 50% of the cases where I shoot against another competitor with equal skill. Their creations, that costs a bunch more than my stock AR, jams & malfunctions and me & my stock Colt just motor right past. My competition, other competitors, rely on gadjets. I trust in good ability & equipment reliability.
Some times I take everything too seriously. It's all fun. This is what works for me. Hope it helps. Buy good ammo. Maybe I'll see you at the Range.
You guys are obviously very knowledgeable about ARs. More impressive is your ability to discuss a subject without criticizing each other. If this is an indication of the nature of competetor shooters I'm really looking forward to my first match. By the way, I have been involved with baseball and softball for the past 20 years. The first rule in hitting a ball? Make contact. A good bat will not make a bad hitter good, but it will make a good hitter better. Sound familar? Thanks!
I've used a stock Colt (20" heavy barrel configuration) in Limited (no optics), and while it is a nice rifle, and I never feel "outgunned", unless the match has a lot of shots over 200 yards, I prefer my M1 Carbine. Really, fancy equipment won't do much for you, unless you have the ability to shoot up to it. Get a gun that runs, and when you can curse your gun for that miss on the 12" target at 325 yards, it's time to upgrade.
bcuzi8paintchips
Inactive
Buy a MTSN and be done with it.
Wes @ mtsn.biz will hook you up.
Wes @ mtsn.biz will hook you up.
bcuzi8paintchips
Inactive
SOC forces are issued Colts, but their personal weapons, which they bring to the rock box and sand box are MSTN. The 4 time national champion in USPSA 3-gun competition tactical class uses a MSTN too.
Lycanthrope
New member
On Taran Butler's website it says he's been running a JP.
Lycanthrope
New member
Besides, Tactical Class in 3 gun was only adopted in 2004.........There was no Tactical Champ in 2003.......but Taran won Standard then anyhow.
bcuzi8paintchips
Inactive
Just quoting MSTN. I do know that their weapons are preferred in the Spec Ops community.
My RRA lower with a WOP upper has never had an issue that wasn't my fault.
No bodys AR is going to run when the bullets are a couple of .000's too long for the mag. Happened exactly once, lesson learned. I've got 30 88 shot matches plus pratice on the rifle with that one hickup.