Where to keep the trigger finger

[Satchmoeddie]

I choose to leave mine attached to my hand. My father cut his trigger finger off with a saw. It took the shop class three days to find it. By then he had no recourse to go back on his decision. Seriously, I generally, but not always, keep it indexed on the gun where the frame and slide meet for Glocks, because where that finger points is where the gun points. Sometimes, I do prestage some guns on drawing and presenting the gun, but NEVER with a striker fired gun. This is a double action revolver or pistol technique, I have used for 40 years, or so. I have, so far, never had any negligent discharge doing this, and I "NEVER" practice like this at any organized shooting range. I also NEVER go shooting outside of a range alone. Should I ___ up, someone needs to be around to see to it I can get medical attention. Generally I have put a spot of grip tape on all of my pistols that lines up with where to put that trigger finger, so it will point the same exact place as the gun. Point at my target, check my sight picture, then place finger on trigger, and fire the gun. I do prestage a few guns that have a very predictable double action pull. Daewoo DP51, Colt Detective Special, Charter Arms, any revolver, etc. A Sig P226, 228, 220, 225, 229, etc. is not at all a good gun to prestage double action. In 40 years I have had 3 NDs. One was the famous Marlin Model 60 .22LR, that you have to dump two live rounds from before it is clear. The other was a Browning .22 SA, that the ammo's wax had fused all the ammo into a long stick, and that could be called a malfunction. The other was lowering the hammer on an old Stevens single shot shotgun, in freezing rain. Every single time the muzzle was pointed in a safe direction. No ND's with handguns, yet. Old .22s and a shotgun.

 

[OldMarksman]

If Im pressed enough to draw a weapon I intend to fire and finger will be on the trigger.

Can't go along with that.

One may draw if and only if drawing is justified, and in all but a handful of states that means that the use of deadly force would be justified--at that moment.

One should not draw any sooner, or any later.

But the fact that drawing may be justified when one draws does not mean that shooting will be justified after one has drawn. There's that little matter of immediate necessity.

One should not intend to fire--ie, make the decision to shoot--until one has a reasonable belief that doing so would be immediately necessary.

I have presented a firearm in a deadly force situation on three occasions. In none did the need to shoot remain after the gun was presented.

And I am extremely lucky that my failure on those occasions to hold my finger in the manner described here by pax did not result in tragedy.

I did not know than what I know now.

If by chance I don't need to fire after all because of the assailants actions [ has happened ], then I don't fire. Simple as that.

That's the stuff that negligent dischargee are made of.

 

[Frank Ettin]

....Gun handling shooting and SD with a firearm , has been turned into something as complicated as brain surgery by the training industry. It's not that complicated. People have been doing it for a couple hundred years....

Really now? Two hundred years ago the handgun in common use was a single shot, muzzle loading, flintlock (there might have been the occasional percussion cap lock around at the time).

Guns have changed just a bit as has the way they are used and handled. And roughly fifty years ago Jeff Cooper and the other folks of the Southwest Combat Pistol League had a lot to do with teaching us a lot about ways of most efficiently using handguns as fighting tools.

... I will put it on the trigger when on target...

And indeed the Modern Technique of the Pistol teaches that the finger is off the trigger until the gun is on target and the shot is to be taken.

 

[Ghost1958]

Let me define pressed enough as it seems it's not clear to a few.
It means someone has put me in a position where shooting that person would be justified and my finger will be on the trigger when I draw.
If said person becomes submissive or manages to stop the action that caused me justifiable reason to shoot them in the second or two it takes me to draw them I won't shoot them.

Simple as that. Been there done that.
My state also happens to be one I can take my gun out of my holster pretty much whenever I like.
Doesn't even have to be carried in a holster here.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...My state also happens to be one I can take my gun out of my holster pretty much whenever I like. ....

Cite the law.

...It means someone has put me in a position where shooting that person would be justified and my finger will be on the trigger when I draw. ..

Which sets a poor example for others.

 

[Ghost1958]

Really now? Two hundred years ago the handgun in common use was a single shot, muzzle loading, flintlock (there might have been the occasional percussion cap lock around at the time).

Guns have changed just a bit as has the way they are used and handled. And roughly fifty years ago Jeff Cooper and the other folks of the Southwest Combat Pistol League had a lot to do with teaching us a lot about ways of most efficiently using handguns as fighting tools.

And indeed the Modern Technique of the Pistol teaches that the finger is off the trigger until the gun is on target and the shot is to be taken.

I agree completely with Coopers words your signature line while realizing when he was speaking to practice and when he was speaking to real world attacks.

Try keeping your finger off the trigger in a real world attack up close attack. Unless you have a very undetermined attacker that runs at harsh language, you will never get your finger near the trigger.

Raised with guns. Been there done that for the most part.
Last post in this thread.
Not going to argue MT gospel.

My own counsel I will keep concerning guns and use of.
Jeez I sounded a bit like yoda lol.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Unless you have a very undetermined attacker you will never get your ginger near the trigger.

I keep my ginger in the kitchen where my herbs and spices belong.

However, I have enough experience training, including with Col. Cooper when I went to Gunsite for the first time, as well as in USPSA competition to be confident in my ability to keep my finger where it belongs -- off the trigger until the gun is on target and on the trigger when I need to shoot.

 

[Ghost1958]

I keep my ginger in the kitchen where my herbs and spices belong.

However, I have enough experience training, including with Col. Cooper when I went to Gunsite for the first time, as well as in USPSA competition to be confident in my ability to keep my finger where it belongs -- off the trigger until the gun is on target and on the trigger when I need to shoot.

One last post to clarify.
I'm not talking about a commercial training school.

Or Gaming.
I don't game.

Again if I draw in response to an attack its already past the line of justification. And I intend to shoot as soon as muzzle is on com when I start the draw . Firing may well happen as soon as muzzle clears holster and rotates to bad guy. Depending on distance and a few hundred other variables.
So yes my finger is on the trigger as it clears holster as, take note please, I intended to fire before I started the draw and as soon as possible.

Now is where common horse sense comes in.
Again depending on a bunch of variables all in my attackers control and done in the bit of time it takes me to draw I may not have to fire at which point I won't. And didn't at least three times in the past.

Just because you draw intending to fire in no way means you have to fire. And should be able to not fire if a situation changes.
Now I'll hand it over to the real gunslingers to carry on.

Edited to add. When just target practicing in my back yard, unless I'm seriously working on accurate speed, or if I was just playing a game my finger is and would be off the trigger.

Of course neither of those relates to actually using a gun in a serious attack by a dangerous person or people.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...So yes my finger is on the trigger as it clears holster as, take note please,...

I do take note. Your finger is on the trigger before the gun is on target.

Thankfully modern doctrine and current instructors don't follow your example, so future generations, if they actually get some decent training, will be doing things differently.

 

[OldMarksman]

Just because you draw intending to fire in no way means you have to fire.

You can say that again!

And should be able to not fire if a situation changes.

And that. too.

But none of that has anything at all to do with finger placement.

The issue with placing one's finger on the trigger prematurely has to dp with the very real risk of an unintentional discharge.

God help the shooter when that happens.

 

[pax]

There's an interesting study that just came out from the Force Science Institute. They didn't find anything new (Roger Enoka did the real ground breaking work a long time ago) but it's a pretty good picture of how unintended discharges happen -- when, where, and why.

There's a free, 36-page pdf available for download at http://www.forcescience.org/research.html -- follow that to the second link down.

For those inclined to brush these findings aside (because we are regular people trying to defend our lives, not law enforcement), I offer the following: we are all human beings. The research rather clearly shows the predictable ways that human beings behave with and around firearms, both during highly stressful deadly force events and during the more mundane stress of everyday gunhandling. And the research also shows how that can sometimes go wrong.

There are several types of stressors that can cause an unintended discharge while a person handles a firearm with the finger near or on the trigger but with no intent to fire immediately. These include:

• Postural disturbance aka loss of balance. This includes getting knocked off balance for any reason, such as tripping or bumping into something. It also includes getting bumped into by others, such as might happen if a family member jostled the gunhandler's elbow.
  .
• Sympathetic contracture, aka sympathetic squeeze response. Humans are bilateral; what we do with one hand tends to be mirrored by the other. This is why beginning piano players often struggle to carry the melody with one hand and chord with the other, and why it's hard to pat your head and rub your tummy at the same time. Similarly, when one finger curls, the other fingers on the same hand tend to curl at the same time even without a conscious decision to do so. When handling a firearm with any fingers near -- but not on -- the trigger, a sympathetic squeeze reaction can draw that finger onto the trigger as the gunhandler contracts or curls their other fingers for tasks such as pressing the magazine release. Sympathetic squeeze reactions also get triggered by gunhandlers doing things such as grabbing a doorknob, activating a flashlight, or flicking a light switch with the non-gun hand. Interestingly, many of the unintended discharges documented in the Force Science study were triggered by the shooter using their legs in a forceful way, such as running or kicking a door. Same basic physical dynamics there too.
  .
• Startle reaction. When humans hear an unexpected loud noise or feel a sudden and unexpected physical sensation (cold water to the face, for example), we instinctively react by tensing up our muscles. This includes the muscles of the hands and forearms, which means we tend to clench our hands into a fist. A person handling a gun when startled is likely to depress the trigger, unless the finger is far away from the trigger and outside the trigger guard at the moment the startling event occurs. Startle reactions are perhaps more common during high-stress events than they are in daily living, because the muscles are already highly tensed and the person is primed to react.

Worth looking at that pdf, by the way. Get your learning on.

pax

You can observe a lot by watching. – Yogi Berra

 

[Sharkbite]

So yes my finger is on the trigger as it clears holster

To have ones finger on the trigger as it clears the holster is a recipe for disaster. Youtube is full of examples of guys doing just that and shooting themselves in the leg.

The proper draw stroke has the gun clear the holster and rotate towards the threat BEFORE the finger moves to the trigger. If the threat is very close, then touch and press the trigger AS THE GUN BEARS ON THE THREAT. This does not slow the shot and prevents you from being a victim of your own ammo selection

 

[OldMarksman]

There's an interesting study that just came out from the force science institute. They didn't find anything new (roger enoka did the real ground breaking work a long time ago) but it's a pretty good picture of how unintended discharges happen -- when, where, and why.

There's a free, 36-page pdf available for download at http://www.forcescience.org/research.html -- follow that to the second link down.

excellent read!

 

[fastbolt]

I can think of a couple of instances where a clenching of the non-gun hand resulted in a tightening of the trigger finger of the gun hand, with guns discharging, involving a couple well trained cops. Nobody was injured or killed, with only property damage occurring.

I wasn't present when those instances occurred, but I knew both cops.

One was a senior firearms instructor, serving a search warrant in his regular assignment. His TDA (DA/SA) .45 fired when he was activating his light with the fingers of his non-gun, and the trigger finger of his other hand similarly tightened on the DA trigger.

The other was a senior SWAT supervisor, serving in his special enforcement unit capacity, searching a vehicle. If I remember correctly, his 1911 fired when he was grasping and pulling on a veh door handle with his dominant hand, having apparently transferred his 1911 to his non-dominant hand, and his non-dominant hand also clenched.

Long story short, if their trigger fingers hadn't been able to find the triggers and press them, the guns wouldn't have discharged.

Anybody ever experienced stomping on the accelerator pedal in a car/truck when they meant to rapidly push the brake pedal? And that's when some driver is using the same foot for both accelerator and brake pedals. Imagine the potential for limb confusion occurring if someone has acquired the bad habit of using a different foot for each of those pedals. Talk about inter-limb confusion ...

 

[FireForged]

I agree with Ghost in that if I decide to draw my weapon, I already have a mental green light regarding the use of deadly force, otherwise I would not draw. Its True, I may not fire, ..the threat may suddenly cease being a threat or simply run away. If that happens..great, but there is simply no way I am going to have a weapon trained on a badguy with my finger off the trigger. As part of my draw stroke, I keep my finger out of the trigger guard until it is lined on target.
You guys can all it what you want but I will simply call it realistic.

 

[Sharkbite]

You guys can all it what you want but I will simply call it realistic.

I call it unsafe and and good way to shoot yourself at the begining of the fight. Not a winning plan.

 

[FireForged]

really.. my finger outside the trigger guard until the weapon is trained on a target? How is that a good way to accidentally shoot myself at the beginning of a fight? Did you read what I wrote

I am not telling others what they should or should not do, I am simply discussing how I personally feel about it.

 

[Troy800]

There has been alot of discussion on our actions and finger placement during an attack. When that dreaded moment happens we will resort to our traning. No time to think or rationalize. So how do you train. 99.99% of my weapon handling is not in response to SD. It is handeling EDC at home, practice at the range, local compititions, hunting. I never handle or train with my finger on the trigger. My finger never goes on the trigger untill my weapon is pointing at the target, whenever i need to move or step my finger comes off the trigger untill i am repositioned and weapon is back on target. Placing your finger high on the side does not slow you down, lack of training does. Train with a purpose.

Negligent discharges never happen, untill they happen.

 

[Frank Ettin]

....my finger outside the trigger guard until the weapon is trained on a target? How is that a good way to accidentally shoot myself ....

Where is it outside the trigger guard. To be safe it needs to be up and indexed on the frame. See pax' comments and follow the link in post 31.

 

[Nanuk]

Back in the bad old days we did not have holsters that covered the triggers in LE. Lots of cops shot themselves in the butt during qualification. Sometime in the mid 1980's they started teaching us to keep out booger hook off the bang switch. It is now second nature for me to index my trigger finger on the frame above the trigger guard.

I shoot competitively, just IDPA these days. While I will never shoot at the master level I have no trouble getting on the trigger when it is time.