Where should I draw the line on high powered defensive guns?

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Such an "expert" will always make faster hits with a "lesser" caliber.
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That may be true, but, a hit is hard to ignore. Interesting anecdote, one time I was arresting a little guy, he hit me 8 or 9 times before I hit him and ended the fight. He was at the time the Golden Gloves Featherweight champ in Juarez, Chihuahua, Mexico.

Further...
An "effective" hit with a 44 won't make any practical difference over an identical hit with say a 9mm, at least in the non anecdotal realm.
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Surely you jest? Parrot "internet wisdom" all you like, however, in real life Mr Murphy is alive and well. I have NEVER had faith in the 9mm, probably never will.
 
Nanuk said:
That may be true, but, a hit is hard to ignore. Interesting anecdote, one time I was arresting a little guy, he hit me 8 or 9 times before I hit him and ended the fight. He was at the time the Golden Gloves Featherweight champ in Juarez, Chihuahua, Mexico.
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Interesting irrelevant anecdote

Parrot "internet wisdom" all you like
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Project much?

I have NEVER had faith in the 9mm, probably never will
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Clearly you aren't a hunter, nor have real world experience with shootings in humans. If you had you would already know that there is no practical difference with regard to common defensive handgun calibers. (see your own words above regarding "internet wisdom") If you ever come to the SW Ill be happy to help you experience some real world examples.
:)
 
all over the map

This threads all over the map. Defensive handguns, whitetail loads, shotgun slugs, boxing.............what next?
 
This discussion is all over the map because, unfortunately, the OP asked a somewhat specific question and then immediately went off the topic while still in his own opening post.

briandg said:
Where should I draw the line on high powered defensive guns?
With a good hit, most people seem to agree that a 9mm or .40 with good defensive ammunition is enough to stop a threat in most cases. Some insist that nothing short of a .357 or .45 ACP should be used as a defensive carry gun.

I am just asking, where do we draw that line? When do we reach a level of lethality and potential damage that we are throwing away either practical carry or controllability? This is all presuming that a good hit was made with any of the above rounds.

Is a .44 magnum with deer loads too powerful to be desirable as a practical defensive carry pistol? I think that it is. .45 colt monster loads? Is there anyone at all who would walk out the door carrying a redhawk in .454 or .500?

Would anyone here go after a 100-200 pound missouri whitetail with a .458 magnum with african game loads? I know that lots of people carry 12 gauge slugs because of game laws, but would anyone choose that 3" magnum slug if they had the opportunity carry a .308?

Yes, I know that there are people who hunt with a 45-70 with monster loads. I think that it's unnecessary to throw a 300 grain JHP at over 2,000 fps when millions of deer have been taken with traditional bottle necked rounds from 30-06 on downward.
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A few points:

  • One of the assumptions made in the opening post was "This is all presuming that a good hit was made with any of the above rounds." In any real world scenario it's probably unwise to presume that you will score good hits with your self-defense firearm, but we have to start somewhere. For the purposes of this discussion, we are to assume "good" hits (whatever that means to you).
  • We are in the "General Handguns" discussion area. Although the OP brought in the mention of .458 magnum with african game loads, 12 gauge slugs, 3" magnum slugs, .308, and .45-70 -- those are not handgun rounds, so discussion of those and similar cartridges is off-topic. Let's not go there.
  • The OP also mentions "level of lethality and potential damage." It is axiomatic in discussions of self defense handguns that there are no one-shot stops -- yet what everyone would like is the golden unicorn of a one-shot stop. Thus, it seems to me that the OP is asking for opinions/perceptions on how to balance the choice between power and controllability.

Let's try to continue the discussion on that basis -- within the context of self-defense handguns and ammunition for self-defense handguns.

Frankly, it's hard to see how this discussion can be anything but another caliber wars thread. Let's see where it goes within the context of self defense handguns but, if the thread continues to follow the familiar 9mm/.40 S&W/.45 ACP pattern we have seen far too many times ... expect that a moderator may come along with the lock thread tool.
 
I'll give you the same advice an instructor once gave me.

Don't pick a caliber so powerful that it gets you killed.

If it's taking you significantly longer to crack off accurate shots than it would with a smaller but still adequate caliber, then you're giving the other guy more time to shoot at you between shots than you should.

If you run out of rounds before the other guy does because your eargesplitten loudengeboomer only holds a few cartridges, you're not doing yourself any favors.

So what should you do?

Stay in the range of calibers that the FBI considers to be adequate service pistol calibers. Understand that if you drop out of that caliber category, you're going to be giving up what the FBI considers to be adequate penetration if you want decent expansion.

Get a timer, some good paper targets, a pen and a couple of guns/calibers you want to compare and go to the range. Leave your ego and preconceptions at home. When you get to the range, run the targets out to at least 10yards and push to your limits with reasonable shooting scenarios. WRITE DOWN your times and scores.

It's important that you really push to your limits--the goal is to see how you perform when you're going as fast as you reasonably can--because that's what you'll be doing if you ever really need a gun for self-defense.

Now look at the time/accuracy differences and decide if they're too big, or if you're satisfied with them. If they're comparable, then go with the gun/caliber you perceive to be superior in terminal performance. If there's a clear winner in terms of accuracy/time then go with that combo.

This strategy is predicated on comparing comparable platforms and making reasonable choices in the first place. If you're going to compare a subcompact 9mm to a full-sized .22LR target pistol, you need to understand that the results aren't giving you much useful information. If you're looking for a subcompact carry gun in a service pistol caliber then only compare subcompact carry guns in the service pistol calibers. If you're looking for a bear defense gun, maybe it's not so useful to compare your performance with .25ACP pistols to your scores with .44Mag revolvers.

Even better is to get involved in one of the practical shooting sports and see how your performance varies with candidate guns. The pressure of performance can help you push to your limits to see how your performance is really affected by firearm/caliber choice.
 
where do we draw that line? When do we reach a level of lethality and potential damage that we are throwing away either practical carry or controllability? This is all presuming that a good hit was made with any of the above rounds.
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I haven't read the whole thread but there isn't really an answer to this, is there?
Anything being shot and entering a body can be lethal, damaging. I'd say it's personal and what determines it FOR ME, is what I use the gun for the most..carry..gotta be comfy and 'concealed'..next, FOR ME, is reliability and being fun to shoot..the next thing I do the most with a gun after carrying it..shooting it.
my 3 number ones
-concealability/comfort
-fun to shoot
-reliable

Why I carry a 9mm and a .380..Shot .45/40/357/44mag..no thanks
Tried to carry a G19..too big.

IS 9mm and .380 lethal enough for the very teeny, tiny chance I gotta shoot somebody?
Yup, cuz as has been mentioned, shot placement..so I shoot these things often..it not only makes me better wth them, but also checks/reinforces that they are reliable.
 
74A95 said:
This video should probably be required watching before making a thread on caliber effectiveness.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nycYxb-zNwc
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Saw that...what I think is 'interesting' are the number of people who struggle to carry and then shoot that 'gun', whatever it is..their decision is based on the least likely scenario, that is, shooting somebody. The chances of that approach zero. So, again, for me..my 'use' of a gun is to carry it(EDC, EveryDayCarry) and to frequently shoot them. Now that the outdoor range is open again, I shoot 3-4 days per month..about 300 rounds per...PLUS caliber/gun choice that I know will be effective, if the need arises.

PLUS, geez, it's FUN...
 
Clearly you aren't a hunter, nor have real world experience with shootings in humans. If you had you would already know that there is no practical difference with regard to common defensive handgun calibers. (see your own words above regarding "internet wisdom") If you ever come to the SW Ill be happy to help you experience some real world examples.
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Funny. No I have been hunting most of my life, well at least since the early 1970's. Mostly big game. What does hunting have to do with defensive shooting? What do rifle wounds have to do with handgun wounds?

I was an inner city cop in North Texas for almost a decade and with the US Border Patrol for over 2 decades. Yes, I have seen quite a few people shot. I have also studied the effects of wounds for about 40 years. So, we disagree. What experience do you have?
 
I beg to differ.
A 45acp brings more energy and a G21 is easier to shoot well than a G22.
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With what ammo? You can cherry pick loads all day to make the 40 behave as a 45, but within 45 ACP SAAMI specs the 40 does surpass the 45 with several loads.

As an example, when the US Border Patrol transitioned from the 357 magnum revolver to the 40 S&W we went with a 155 GRN JHP @ 1250 fps from a Beretta. I don't know of any 45 ACP load that comes close, even when the lowered the velocity to 1200 fps and the corresponding pressure.
 
Yes, Bill Jordan said the 38 Special is the most powerful round the average man-meaning most of us-can expect to master.
 
My point was not that .40 S&W is superior to .45 ACP, but that it is a higher-energy round that produces more recoil. It does produce more energy than .45 ACP in standard pressure. The comment that the G21 is easier to shoot than the G22 makes my point for me. The .40 is worse for "shootability" and that's what I meant when I said it was a step-up on the spectrum described in the OP.
 
If you can justify in your head carrying a 500s&w or a Desert Eagle in point-five-oh, go for it. You draw the line where YOU are the most comfortable.

However if you are in the lane next to me at the shooting range, and I see you missing the target stand, shooting the ground in front of the stand, or shooting over the stand, I might be forced to ridicule you on the internets. :D
 
labnoti said:
My point was not that .40 S&W is superior to .45 ACP, but that it is a higher-energy round that produces more recoil. It does produce more energy than .45 ACP in standard pressure. The comment that the G21 is easier to shoot than the G22 makes my point for me. The .40 is worse for "shootability" and that's what I meant when I said it was a step-up on the spectrum described in the OP.
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The recoil of the 45 ACP and 40 S&W is roughly equal.

https://www.handgunsmag.com/editorial/recoil-comparison-pistol-competition-cartridges/137951

The two Glocks you mention don't weigh the same. The G21 weighs 29.28oz and the G22 weighs 25.57oz. So one might expect the lighter G22 to have more recoil even if the two cartridges produce the same recoil force.
 
The recoil of the 45 ACP and 40 S&W is roughly equal.
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Four comparisons were examined:

1) Factory ammunition.

2) Caliber-typical bullet weights at factory velocities with the same gunpowder.

3) Caliber-typical bullet weights at the same power factor.

4) The same bullet weight in different calibers at the same power factor.
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Only when the same weight bullet at the same velocity is used. That is sort of a DUH moment.

Try a 155 GRN 40 @ 1200 fps, it is a bit more snappy than a 45 ACP. I have only shot 10's of thousands of each.
 
Nanuk said:
Only when the same weight bullet at the same velocity is used. That is sort of a DUH moment.
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Nope. It's about equal even when shooting caliber typical bullets, such as 230gr in 45 ACP and 180gr in 40 S&W. This is demonstrated in the article. Read it again.
 
I think the defensive handgun choice is a balancing act.

First, what are we doing? Are we hiking out in the woods or going to the local Walmart? What we might need to defend against helps define our need. For instance, are we thinking hungry bears or desperate meth heads? What we are wearing and where we are going help to define our size and weight limits. For instance, are we open-carrying in the wild or concealed-carrying with a T-shirt and jeans?

I like to carry the most power and highest capacity that I can shoot well and carry comfortably. In a full-sized firearm, that might be .40 S&W around town or 10mm outdoors. In a compact or medium-sized firearm, I like 9mm. For a pocket gun, I like .327 Federal.

Of course, nostalgia sometimes gets the better of me and I choose .357 magnum for walks in the woods. :o
 
Defensive Guns

"Lethality is the last thing I am concerned with. I want them to STOP."

FINALLY someone got the answer!!!

When attacked, ALL that matters is STOPPING it/them from continuing to take actions against you!!!

You need to STOP them/it RIGHT NOW!

Once STOPPED they/it can take all day to die!!!

TW
 
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