Where Is The Line?

Also, I've ran across the statement in many threads that goes something like
Quote:
If you shoot someone at XX range it can't/won't be considered self defense
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I've had a little better than half a dozen good instructors through the years, in some courses that were required and some done on my own.

No instructor has ever discussed specific ranges beyond which SD wouldn't be lawful.

Some authorities, whose opinions I respect, have pointed out the difficulty that could arise when claiming SD at long distance when a rifle is involved.

All laws specify the degree to which one's life must be in danger before deadly force would be lawful.

Distance could certainly play a part in that along with quite a number of other factors when twelve retired folks who don't read gun magazines or own firearms determines your fate based on what the prosecutor and the judge gave them. I still like Ayoobs admonishment with respect to you or me facing "UNAVOIDABLE death or serious bodily injury", or words very similar.

And it's easy enough to reason that if someone is shooting at me with a pistol at any distance, then shooting back with an equal amount of force should be lawful (within reason and common sense). Don't know how those old retired folks would see it. Maybe they'd take pity on me (since I look like they do :D). Maybe not.
 
I like the OP's question. Although I don't believe that everyone has to have the same "line", I do believe that everyone should have a well defined line (subject to exceptions of course) in his/her own mind if they are going to carry a weapon.

For me, the "line" is about 15 feet. In my mind, anything less than that, and I'm simply not going to be prepared. But, the idea of shooting someone at a distance greater than 15 feet really makes me question whether or not I'd truly be acting in self defense. And, with the gun that I choose to carry, I'm not going to have great accuracy much beyond 20-25 feet.

But, like I said, there can be exceptions. If multiple thuggish looking people are quickly approaching me, some with guns exposed, I might consider that an exception to my line.

PS. I went back and read the responses so far. They seem to be in opposition to having any line where they will/will not shoot. However, I wonder how this can be. Most people who carry know how accurate they are with their gun out to a certain range - well, that would be one type of line as governed by the accuracy of your abilities and your weapon.

I also saw that some folks addressed situations where the BG's were already shooting at you - yes, I were to ever encounter this, that would be another exception. But, most of my defensive drills that I practice deal with situations less than 15 feet, some maybe up to 25 feet. And, other than target shooting, I really don't practice any drills involving situations beyond those distances.
 
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shooting distance

Im not believing what i see on here! Do any of you people have a license
to carry a concealed weapon? If you do, you already know the answer to
this question! Come on, guys! If someone is threatening you, does it really
make a difference in the distance he is shootin at you? This whole subject
is SILLY! Do you really think they are gonna get out a tape measure and
measure the distance you are shooting at? Ive never seen so many arm
chair experts in my life! Have ANY of you ever really been in a self defense
shooting? I dont think so, or you wouldnt be asking such stupid questions!
Im signing off now, before I say something I shouldnt! Good grief!
 
Im signing off now, before I say something I shouldnt! Good grief!
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Ummm... thank goodness?

Discussing in an online forum is like trying to have a conversation in a bar. Someone at the other end of the joint always has to stand up and scream something completely irrelevant before we spend several minutes trying to decide whether it's even worthy of a response.

~LT
 
There is no definite "line" as all others have said. It all depends on the circumstances and everything is relative. If a guy has a knife and is threatening your friend 55 feet away and you shoot at him 6 times and hit him twice, you'll have a lot harder time pushing your particular course of action past a jury than your friend, if he happened to pull out his weapon and shoot the guy first.

Everything is relative and everything depends on something else, often a LOT of things.

I have a mental "line" at ~35-45' where I'd rather take some serious evasive action, gun in hand, than just stand and return fire. But again, it all depends on the circumstances. Is the guy coming at me? What's he armed with? Does he have friends? All of these things and a hundred others have the propensity to affect a jury's judgement of your decision with relation to whatever range at which you happened to engage this man.

~LT
 
For me, the "line" is about 15 feet. In my mind, anything less than that, and I'm simply not going to be prepared. But, the idea of shooting someone at a distance greater than 15 feet really makes me question whether or not I'd truly be acting in self defense. And, with the gun that I choose to carry, I'm not going to have great accuracy much beyond 20-25 feet.
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Good grief, Scans, my man. A gunman could kill you from a distance far greater than that while you're still pondering whether you'd be acting in self defense.;)


Don't mean to pick on you personally, but some folks discuss the matter as though there's some kind of general description of a SD shooting based on what they think it might look like according to what pops into their head.

There are lots of situations where you WOULD NOT be justified that could be much closer than that, and situations where you WOULD be justified farther away. When you're in a dance with death, survival might be a matter of synchronizing one's actions with the situation so as to survive.

Lecture done.:D
 
Good grief, Scans, my man. A gunman could kill you from a distance far greater than that while you're still pondering whether you'd be acting in self defense.


Don't mean to pick on you personally, but some folks discuss the matter as though there's some kind of general description of a SD shooting based on what they think it might look like according to what pops into their head.

There are lots of situations where you WOULD NOT be justified that could be much closer than that, and situations where you WOULD be justified farther away. When you're in a dance with death, survival might be a matter of synchronizing one's actions with the situation so as to survive.

Lecture done.
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All taken in good fun, Nnobby45. But, lets assume that you are carrying an AMT 45 Backup. It only has a channel sight. It is Double Action Only with a 3" barrel. It's not much different than someone who carries a .38 snub nose revolver. Anyway, That's what I choose to carry.....for now. I have practiced quite a bit with this gun. I can hit center of mass out to about 15 feet quickly. If I take time to aim and try to do 2-handed fire I might be good to about 30 feet. If I find myself in a gun battle with attackers over 30 feet away, the last thing I'm going to do is waste my 6 shots on relatively long-range misses. No, I'm better off seeking cover or taking evasive action.

Also, it's pretty hard for me to imagine anyone threatening my life from over 20 feet away. Please, give me some scenarios - my brain just can't think of any. What is going to be happening 20 feet from where I'm standing that will be threatening my life? It's not going to be someone looking to steal my wallet, atm card, money, watch, etc. It's not going to be someone car-jack my vehicle. So, what's the threat?
 
Also, it's pretty hard for me to imagine anyone threatening my life from over 20 feet away. Please, give me some scenarios - my brain just can't think of any. What is going to be happening 20 feet from where I'm standing that will be threatening my life? It's not going to be someone looking to steal my wallet, atm card, money, watch, etc. It's not going to be someone car-jack my vehicle. So, what's the threat?
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Its actually probably something way scarier, someone who is there with the sole purpose of killing you.

Happened to a boy nearby here, who was out in the yard having a smoke, and his "assailant", shot him "with intent", from about 200 yards away.

Now Im not saying Id normally return that, but considering the situation there, and if his first shot was a miss, he'd have 17 rounds coming to him as I was headed towards the house or barn, just to keep his head down and I could get to something that would even up the odds.


A lot of all this I suppose is what your environment is like and what you deal with from day to day. For me, my daily environment is everywhere from being jammed into the cattle chutes downtown in "the big city" to literally being "outstanding in my field", and its a BIG field. :)

Whats a good choice for one, who measures daily life in yards or meters, might not be a good choice for the other, if they measure life in feet or centimeters. The right choice will allow you do deal with "most" though.

Realistically, life is only going to be as good as what you brought along when the time comes. I'll bet no matter what that is, you still wish it was bigger and badder regadless. :)
 
Also, it's pretty hard for me to imagine anyone threatening my life from over 20 feet away. Please, give me some scenarios - my brain just can't think of any.
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some states allow for the protection of others. While I know it's extremely remote were I to have a shot in an active shooter scenario I think I'd have a hard time running away.
 
Not much bigger than the AMT, I can carry and hit at 50+ yds with my G26 and practice it regularly.

One can carry a 'serious' handgun with little difficulty with the proper mindset.
 
I saw that line once, it was right where the guy that shot me was standing. Yep right there. Was working so I didnt have any type of weapon, glad he shot only one time.
 
I think it is foolish to practice only at close distances as it is foolish to practice only at 25 yards and beyond.

I will know my line when I am confronted.
 
Now if they're over there waving their gun around and farting in my general direction, I might have time to look up "the French and the proper response to smelly but very threatening insults" in my manual.
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I think the proper response is to "just walk away" and "ignore him." But then again they did have a catapult and a cow. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V7zbWNznbs

Seriously, I think if you have time to worry about is the person close enough to be a threat, shooting may not be the correct answer. The 20 foot "rule" -- as many of you know -- comes out of research showing that a man with a knife can close a 20 foot gap and engage with the knife faster than most police can draw, aim, and fire their side arm. Hopefully the police have that sequence down better than any of is lay people.

I think Castle Doctrine only applies within one's home.
 
All taken in good fun, Nnobby45. But, lets assume that you are carrying an AMT 45 Backup. It only has a channel sight. It is Double Action Only with a 3" barrel. It's not much different than someone who carries a .38 snub nose revolver.
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OK, I see your point, but the discussion here is mostly about legal pitfalls as they relate to distances from the attacker.

I'm not saying that tactical restrictions related to skill and equipment shortcomings aren't relevent to the discussion-- but they're really another subject matter. Not trying to play moderator, just trying to keep things in context.:)
 
"Where is this supposed mythical line I can't cross?" [smince]

If under imminent deadly attack, I have boundaries:

At about 20 feet I shout loudly "STOP - BACK OFF."

If attacker does not stop, I draw and fire. I can draw and fire accurately in 0.40 of a second. Not Bill Jordan speed, but its the best I can manage.

Of course if there is an active shooter all distance variables are off.

I have checked this protocol with three local PDs and they are fine with it.
 
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