gunslinger555
New member
if the pastor of my church was in charge we would be alot more free
Where are we headed?
- Thread starter THENASH
- Start date
steelheart
Moderator
Look around - the evidence is everywhere
Leif -
It began in earnest during the years of Bush #41. A man who wanted to just be left alone moved his family up into the mountains of Idaho. The FBI set in motion a blatant effort to entrap him, which ended with his 14 year old son being shot in the back and killed by an FBI sniper, his wife being shot in the face and killed while holding her baby in her arms (BIG threat to the FBI troops) and the man the FBI wanted dead (obviously) mortally wounded as well as one of his friends who was present when the FBI kicked off its assault agains them. The FBI agents responsible for the planning, execution and murder of two innocent people never answered for their crimes.
It continued during the Clinton regieme, "The most ethical administration in history" as the criminal-in-chief called his reign. Some wierd people in Texas wanted to be left alone. They moved out into the country and built a place to live. But they had a big gun collection and the Clinton/Reno regieme was not going to stand for it. "The Government" decided to make an example out of them, bringing to bear against them every weapon in its military arsenal short of nuclear warheads. In the end, over 80 people lay dead - burned to death by "The most ethical administration in history" after "The Government" was made to look like incopetent bufoons due to an almost two month standoff that rendered "The Government" impotent. The survivors were thrown in federal prison to silence them, the scene containing physical evidence of what really happened was bulldozed, and once again "The Government's" hitmen never answered for their crimes. Reno claimed "full responsibility" yet never answered for her involvement and incopetence.
As for the administration of Bush #43, we have many examples - the so-called "Campaign Finance Reform" law which Bush signed into law and is blatantly unconstitutional; "The Patriot Act/Patriot Act II," portions of which fly in the face of the Bill of Rights; the outrage of gun confiscation in New Orleans, which Bush said and did nothing about, to name but a few examples. Bottom line: Things are not getting better for We The People in regards to our rights and freedoms. The actions we have seen taken by our so-called political leaders over the years are not the actions of patriots - these are the actions on men and women who covet power for power's sake. I call these people political whores.
Look around, Leif. The evidence is everywhere.
Leif -
All you have to do for your answer is take off the blinders and look at the actions those in power have taken over the last 10 to 15 years.
It began in earnest during the years of Bush #41. A man who wanted to just be left alone moved his family up into the mountains of Idaho. The FBI set in motion a blatant effort to entrap him, which ended with his 14 year old son being shot in the back and killed by an FBI sniper, his wife being shot in the face and killed while holding her baby in her arms (BIG threat to the FBI troops) and the man the FBI wanted dead (obviously) mortally wounded as well as one of his friends who was present when the FBI kicked off its assault agains them. The FBI agents responsible for the planning, execution and murder of two innocent people never answered for their crimes.
It continued during the Clinton regieme, "The most ethical administration in history" as the criminal-in-chief called his reign. Some wierd people in Texas wanted to be left alone. They moved out into the country and built a place to live. But they had a big gun collection and the Clinton/Reno regieme was not going to stand for it. "The Government" decided to make an example out of them, bringing to bear against them every weapon in its military arsenal short of nuclear warheads. In the end, over 80 people lay dead - burned to death by "The most ethical administration in history" after "The Government" was made to look like incopetent bufoons due to an almost two month standoff that rendered "The Government" impotent. The survivors were thrown in federal prison to silence them, the scene containing physical evidence of what really happened was bulldozed, and once again "The Government's" hitmen never answered for their crimes. Reno claimed "full responsibility" yet never answered for her involvement and incopetence.
As for the administration of Bush #43, we have many examples - the so-called "Campaign Finance Reform" law which Bush signed into law and is blatantly unconstitutional; "The Patriot Act/Patriot Act II," portions of which fly in the face of the Bill of Rights; the outrage of gun confiscation in New Orleans, which Bush said and did nothing about, to name but a few examples. Bottom line: Things are not getting better for We The People in regards to our rights and freedoms. The actions we have seen taken by our so-called political leaders over the years are not the actions of patriots - these are the actions on men and women who covet power for power's sake. I call these people political whores.
Look at the ignorance and apathy of most Americans in regard to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Do they spend their time learning about the Constitution and the Bill of Rights? No; they spend their time learning about "Survivor," "Wheel of Fortune," "American Idol" and "Jerry Springer." The vast majority of high school and college students value "being popular" above all else. The majority of their parents value work, money and career above their children - they spend the majority of their time at work, not with their children. Why? To get more money to buy more stuff. Work does take up alot of time, granted. But when it becomes the primary focus of a parent rather than their children being the primary focus, I would suggest that maybe it is time to learn to make do with a little less stuff and focus on things that really matter - like the children you brought into this world and the relentless erosion of the Bill of Rights.
Look around, Leif. The evidence is everywhere.
I did not say that "higher education exercises a negative effect on the overall development of the nation." Just like I didn't say "Religion = good; education = bad," as someone else here tried to claim.
I hate to say it, steelheart, but you missed the point of my questions. You present the problems that you see as being of relatively recent origin (i.e., the government "has become" X, or the people "have become" Y), which implies that in the past they were not so. Your answers do not address this issue of the past versus the present (or the recent past), even though drastic change between that past and the present is very strongly implied within your assessment of American history.
Basically, what evidence can you present to demonstrate that the American government and the vast majority of American citizens are more lustful for, more ruthless in their pursuit of power and wealth than their predecessors? To accomplish this, you have to present evidence from the past history of the nation, rather than reiterate the sins of the present or very recent past.
Basically, what evidence can you present to demonstrate that the American government and the vast majority of American citizens are more lustful for, more ruthless in their pursuit of power and wealth than their predecessors? To accomplish this, you have to present evidence from the past history of the nation, rather than reiterate the sins of the present or very recent past.
Leif said:
"I hate to say it, steelheart, but you missed the point of my questions. You present the problems that you see as being of relatively recent origin (i.e., the government "has become" X, or the people "have become" Y), which implies that in the past they were not so. Your answers do not address this issue of the past versus the present (or the recent past), even though drastic change between that past and the present is very strongly implied within your assessment of American history.
Basically, what evidence can you present to demonstrate that the American government and the vast majority of American citizens are more lustful for, more ruthless in their pursuit of power and wealth than their predecessors? To accomplish this, you have to present evidence from the past history of the nation, rather than reiterate the sins of the present or very recent past."
Steelheart you do not HAVE to do anything my friend. Most of us understand where you are coming from. Unless you feel the need to suade Mr Leif to our understanding, you do not HAVE to show any evidence. This is an old debators trick.....prove it show me where it exist.
The truth is not the truth because someone believes it. Or, is made to believe it with empirical evidence. Just because steelheart believes something is true or accurate does not predispose him to validate his beliefs. He believes in what his previous statements he has posted. And many of us believe that he is accurate in those assumptions.
This whole thread is asking us to portend the outcome of a nation. That outcome is predicated on peoples actions and behaviors. Predicting human behavior is a far cry from being an exact science. Honestly, you both are probably both accurate and inaccurate in your predictions. Very difficult to determine, foresee, seer, or portend the future of the U.S.. But steelheart does not need to or HAVE to show anything other than state his prediction. Time will tell if any of us who have posted are correct or not.
Sorry to intrude on your debate. But, I felt as though a course correction about what this thread started out as was necessary. The thread started out to be a guess as to future events. Good luck with predicting that. People are too unpredictable to navigate what, when, and where anything will happen.
But, a nation that rises and falls and/or experiences turmoil, revolution or mass civil unrest is and has been precedent for any and all nations....historically speaking. That is precedent enough for me to assume that America will transition through these same course of events. Is that difficult to believe or, too far a stretch of the imagination?
"I hate to say it, steelheart, but you missed the point of my questions. You present the problems that you see as being of relatively recent origin (i.e., the government "has become" X, or the people "have become" Y), which implies that in the past they were not so. Your answers do not address this issue of the past versus the present (or the recent past), even though drastic change between that past and the present is very strongly implied within your assessment of American history.
Basically, what evidence can you present to demonstrate that the American government and the vast majority of American citizens are more lustful for, more ruthless in their pursuit of power and wealth than their predecessors? To accomplish this, you have to present evidence from the past history of the nation, rather than reiterate the sins of the present or very recent past."
Steelheart you do not HAVE to do anything my friend. Most of us understand where you are coming from. Unless you feel the need to suade Mr Leif to our understanding, you do not HAVE to show any evidence. This is an old debators trick.....prove it show me where it exist.
The truth is not the truth because someone believes it. Or, is made to believe it with empirical evidence. Just because steelheart believes something is true or accurate does not predispose him to validate his beliefs. He believes in what his previous statements he has posted. And many of us believe that he is accurate in those assumptions.
This whole thread is asking us to portend the outcome of a nation. That outcome is predicated on peoples actions and behaviors. Predicting human behavior is a far cry from being an exact science. Honestly, you both are probably both accurate and inaccurate in your predictions. Very difficult to determine, foresee, seer, or portend the future of the U.S.. But steelheart does not need to or HAVE to show anything other than state his prediction. Time will tell if any of us who have posted are correct or not.
Sorry to intrude on your debate. But, I felt as though a course correction about what this thread started out as was necessary. The thread started out to be a guess as to future events. Good luck with predicting that. People are too unpredictable to navigate what, when, and where anything will happen.
But, a nation that rises and falls and/or experiences turmoil, revolution or mass civil unrest is and has been precedent for any and all nations....historically speaking. That is precedent enough for me to assume that America will transition through these same course of events. Is that difficult to believe or, too far a stretch of the imagination?
2ndamd, you're not getting any closer to those RPGs! 
You are correct: steelheart does not have to do anything. He may state his beliefs concerning the past, present, and future of the country as much as he likes. However, until evidence is presented to substantiate his claims, they remain in the realm of faith, not the realm of fact. If steelheart would like his claims to be accepted as articles of faith, then requests made by myself for evidence and support are meaningless and should be ignored. However, if he would like his claims accepted as fact, then my questions probably should at the very least be addressed.
You stated:
I have no strong problem with this statement. Human behavior, and especially the complex behavior of groups of humans, is notoriously difficult to predict, really, almost to the point of being a hollow exercise in many ways. However, the manner in which predictions should be formulated if they are going to be formulated at all is by examining for patterns and trends the data and evidence of that which came before the prediction - the past. The strength, the relative merit, of any given prediction rests upon a foundation of properly interpreted historical fact (unless of course the prediction is intended to be accepted upon faith alone), which in many ways is the crux of the debate here: who's assessment of the American past is correct, and what does that assessment mean for the future?
You are correct: steelheart does not have to do anything. He may state his beliefs concerning the past, present, and future of the country as much as he likes. However, until evidence is presented to substantiate his claims, they remain in the realm of faith, not the realm of fact. If steelheart would like his claims to be accepted as articles of faith, then requests made by myself for evidence and support are meaningless and should be ignored. However, if he would like his claims accepted as fact, then my questions probably should at the very least be addressed.
You stated:
I have no strong problem with this statement. Human behavior, and especially the complex behavior of groups of humans, is notoriously difficult to predict, really, almost to the point of being a hollow exercise in many ways. However, the manner in which predictions should be formulated if they are going to be formulated at all is by examining for patterns and trends the data and evidence of that which came before the prediction - the past. The strength, the relative merit, of any given prediction rests upon a foundation of properly interpreted historical fact (unless of course the prediction is intended to be accepted upon faith alone), which in many ways is the crux of the debate here: who's assessment of the American past is correct, and what does that assessment mean for the future?
Public schools and most social progams are run by liberals, they're failing, and dragging society down with them. The costs of this public paid for foolishness keeps rising and rusults keep falling.
Not an opinion, just an observation. We are heading for disaster, unless we break the monopoly liberals have on American society.
For starters we should slash taxes and allow schools to compete, let the parents have what is righfully earned financialy and spend it on their own kids, butt out G man.
Not an opinion, just an observation. We are heading for disaster, unless we break the monopoly liberals have on American society.
For starters we should slash taxes and allow schools to compete, let the parents have what is righfully earned financialy and spend it on their own kids, butt out G man.
But we already have a GIANT national debt and cutting taxes would make that worse. Unless of course we got rid of all the unconstitutional laws that cost the goverment lots and lots of money.
But that would be far to hard, lets just continue falling because we are to lazy as a country to pull the rip cord.
steelheart
Moderator
2ndamd -
Thanks for your imput. I recognized the questions posed by Leif for what they were from the outset - he has a habit of asking questions for which there are no answers.
Thanks for your imput. I recognized the questions posed by Leif for what they were from the outset - he has a habit of asking questions for which there are no answers.
Believe me, there's no persuading Mr. Left - oops, I meant Mr. Leif - of anything. He has all the answers (Republicans = bad, conservatives = bad, Democrats = good, socialism = good, Bush can do no right, Clinton can do no wrong); he has a long although undistinguished history of advocating these points here. All one has to do is read his past posts to confirm this.
Well bender, we spend 1.3TRILLION, and yes thats a T. on social programs that do nothing except increase in size and cost. SEAL OFF THE BOARDER, big savings alone, NO MORE FREE MEDICAL, FREE SCHOOL, or WELFARE to ILLEGAL ALIENS. Just simple cuts in spending like that would allow for nice big "tax cuts", I love those two words next to each other!
We could clean up that debt quick.
America is turning into a liberal welfare state, and looking more like an inner city dump every day.
More money and power to the people who acually get their butts out a bed and work for a living. LESS money to this INEFFICIENT and LAME GOVERNMENT!
This so called government punishes the working and gives a free ride to the lazy, and it needs to stop.
But but but what will the poor lazy do??? The same damn thing we all do! WORK for a living!
Edited, billion for TRILLION.
We could clean up that debt quick.
America is turning into a liberal welfare state, and looking more like an inner city dump every day.
More money and power to the people who acually get their butts out a bed and work for a living. LESS money to this INEFFICIENT and LAME GOVERNMENT!
This so called government punishes the working and gives a free ride to the lazy, and it needs to stop.
But but but what will the poor lazy do??? The same damn thing we all do! WORK for a living!
Edited, billion for TRILLION.
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The whole point of this thread being about predicted events for the future of the country, I think was right on. In a thread, worded the way it was when it was started, we should be concentrating on sharing our theories, rather than trying to prove them.
On the other hand, when examples are used, they should be historically accurate to the best possible degree. The only problem I saw in Steelheart's first post was this.
I don't recall tanks or F/A-18 bombers being utilized in the standoff. Just alot of FBI and DEA agents and lot's of teargas. Which, incidentally, it was thought the teargas cannisters set off the blaze unintentionaly.
Thanks for the course correct 2ndamd.
Steelheart, what was the case you were talking about in the opening of your post? The one about the guy in the Idaho mountains. Who was that about?
On the other hand, when examples are used, they should be historically accurate to the best possible degree. The only problem I saw in Steelheart's first post was this.
I don't recall tanks or F/A-18 bombers being utilized in the standoff. Just alot of FBI and DEA agents and lot's of teargas. Which, incidentally, it was thought the teargas cannisters set off the blaze unintentionaly.
Thanks for the course correct 2ndamd.
Steelheart, what was the case you were talking about in the opening of your post? The one about the guy in the Idaho mountains. Who was that about?
I believe that steelheart was referring to the Randy Weaver case.
Well people, don't confuse me with the facts, eh? Please forgive me for trying to actually root my theorizing and criticism in historical fact. Apparently, dark prognostication based on internal fantasizing and cursory, ideological selection of recent headlines is the only order of the day. It's quite funny, really, not to mention self-serving, that people who hearken back to the 'golden era of the founders' suddenly want to avoid discussion of any other aspects of American history.
Given the last several posts, maybe the system of education in this country is in more trouble than I thought.
Well people, don't confuse me with the facts, eh? Please forgive me for trying to actually root my theorizing and criticism in historical fact. Apparently, dark prognostication based on internal fantasizing and cursory, ideological selection of recent headlines is the only order of the day. It's quite funny, really, not to mention self-serving, that people who hearken back to the 'golden era of the founders' suddenly want to avoid discussion of any other aspects of American history.
Given the last several posts, maybe the system of education in this country is in more trouble than I thought.
leif, it's typical of liberals to attack a person intellect when they have no arguement. You can use that sorry tactic all day long.
The truth is, and most people would agree that our public education system is broken, and by supposedly highly educated people, most of whom share your political veiw points.
And yes, we should seal off the boarder and screen for higher quality immigrants.
The truth is, and most people would agree that our public education system is broken, and by supposedly highly educated people, most of whom share your political veiw points.
And yes, we should seal off the boarder and screen for higher quality immigrants.
steelheart
Moderator
And he does.:barf: I call it blowing Ganja smoke up the rectum, and Leif is a true professional in that regard.
(Now watch - he'll accuse me of the same because he can't think of anything else to say)
This thread had original intentions that were known only to me. I am VERY pleased and entertained by every post. However, I do not desire in any way to watch this thread get hijacked and turned into a political debate.
If someone posts a statement that you disagree with then it is YOUR job to site examples explaining why you disagree. Asking for examples as to why someone believes the way they believe is fine, but to downplay thier response as void of any educated merit is no longer debating it is flat out arguing. So I ask again. . .Where are we headed. . . in your educated opinions?
If someone posts a statement that you disagree with then it is YOUR job to site examples explaining why you disagree. Asking for examples as to why someone believes the way they believe is fine, but to downplay thier response as void of any educated merit is no longer debating it is flat out arguing. So I ask again. . .Where are we headed. . . in your educated opinions?
UniversalFrost
New member
+1 for enough. Shut it down. Gone too far.. Good topic though.
I see us headed for more government control and loss of freedom.
The American people are too complaisant to do anything, and the house and senate know this. Look at the outrages laws that have been passed in the last two decades. The people are the problem, IMO.
The people fear the IRS. People are afraid to speak their minds anymore because the goverment can arrest and detain them for any reason, and the people let it happen. At the end of the year over half our incomes have been pissed away by idiots like Bush dopers like Kennedy, and as soon as they say we want more the sheeple say how much?
Yes sir Mr. Gov!
The American people are too complaisant to do anything, and the house and senate know this. Look at the outrages laws that have been passed in the last two decades. The people are the problem, IMO.
The people fear the IRS. People are afraid to speak their minds anymore because the goverment can arrest and detain them for any reason, and the people let it happen. At the end of the year over half our incomes have been pissed away by idiots like Bush dopers like Kennedy, and as soon as they say we want more the sheeple say how much?
Yes sir Mr. Gov!
I just read the whole crime library report on Randy Weaver. The actions of the FBI seem to me to be very outrageous in this case. And I'm not surprised that a government agency would resort to overkill like it did.
However, it seems to me, that attending racist gatherings, and attempting to purchase weapons illegally, are going to bring the attention of the authorities down on you. Mr. Weaver had every right to live in seclusion, and, to an extent, even a right to attend those gatherings. But when he violated the law by attempting to purchase illegal sawed-offs, he himself initiated the affair that cost him so much. He would have been better off, spending a little extra cash, and buying legal shotguns then doing whatever he felt was necessary in the privacy of his own home.
But it does please me to hear of the government being held accountable, even in some small way, when cases like this one get out of control. Without more people paying attention to the actions and decisions of the government, I forsee more ruby ridges in the future. The more rights the government takes away, and the more control it tries to exert over the citizens of America. The more ruby ridges will be necessary to inform the country that something is wrong.
However, it seems to me, that attending racist gatherings, and attempting to purchase weapons illegally, are going to bring the attention of the authorities down on you. Mr. Weaver had every right to live in seclusion, and, to an extent, even a right to attend those gatherings. But when he violated the law by attempting to purchase illegal sawed-offs, he himself initiated the affair that cost him so much. He would have been better off, spending a little extra cash, and buying legal shotguns then doing whatever he felt was necessary in the privacy of his own home.
But it does please me to hear of the government being held accountable, even in some small way, when cases like this one get out of control. Without more people paying attention to the actions and decisions of the government, I forsee more ruby ridges in the future. The more rights the government takes away, and the more control it tries to exert over the citizens of America. The more ruby ridges will be necessary to inform the country that something is wrong.
I'm not at all sure what "crime library" you got your info from, but...
Randy Weaver did not buy a short barreled shotgun. He was coerced into making one by undercover BATF agents. When he finally did get to trial, he was acquited of manufacturing an unlawful weapon. The feds simply couldn't prove that the weapon they presented as evidence was exectly the same as the one weaver sold them. BTW, the stock on the weapon was shortened, so the the overall length was under 26 inches. The barrel was of legal length. The only thing Weaver was convicted on was failure to appear on the original charge.
Regardless, the entire scene was set because Weaver refused to act as an informant for the BATF, so they charged him with manufacturing/possesion of a firearm less than 26 inches in length and failure to pay the $200 NFA tax. All of what happened was because of a $200 tax bill.
Randy Weaver did not buy a short barreled shotgun. He was coerced into making one by undercover BATF agents. When he finally did get to trial, he was acquited of manufacturing an unlawful weapon. The feds simply couldn't prove that the weapon they presented as evidence was exectly the same as the one weaver sold them. BTW, the stock on the weapon was shortened, so the the overall length was under 26 inches. The barrel was of legal length. The only thing Weaver was convicted on was failure to appear on the original charge.
Regardless, the entire scene was set because Weaver refused to act as an informant for the BATF, so they charged him with manufacturing/possesion of a firearm less than 26 inches in length and failure to pay the $200 NFA tax. All of what happened was because of a $200 tax bill.