When would a shotgun be your first choice?

because they were made by the gunmaker, W.W. Greener, out of Birmingham, England. Nothing to do with ease of use by new guys.

If you have a genuine English "W Greener" it should be a muzzle loader, either flintlock or percussion, made between 1829 and 1869. W Greener made firearms in Birmingham, England. His son, W W Greener disagreed with his father's decision to continue making only percussion guns and started his own business in 1855. After the father's death in 1869, the son took over the business and any guns made after that year will be marked "W W Greener". WW had offices in Birmingham, London, Paris, New York, and Montreal. The family business existed until at least 1965.

Until 1869 all were muzzle loaders not cartridge.

Whereas this was a common name:

Greeners. greenhorns, inexperienced people, particularly new immigrants,

The short barreled "coach" guns of the time were easy to load and fire on another.

Least this is what I was told by my Uncle he collected guns from the revolutionary time until the 1900s. Some of the guns he had were carried by relatives in those wars.
 
Sidebar question...can your ears handle a 12G Mossberg 00 indoors? I wonder if I ever have to use it to defend myself but I guess a few weeks of ringing is worth your life....;)
 
I was wishing I had my 870, loaded with slugs, when I ran into a big black bear who had no fear of people while camping last week...

Luckily, I was able to back away safely, but the rest of the trip I was feeling a bit underpowered with my .357 magnum. We saw the same bear several times.
 
When would a shotgun be your first choice?
I'm trying to decide if it's really worth getting a tactical style shotgun (Remington 870 or Mossberg) with all the associated overhead such as training, practice, etc.


What type of situation would make reaching for a shotgun your first choice?

At home, a shotgun would be my first choice always.

Tactical shotgun? Only if you want to play at being tactical. I have a bargain-basement Mossberg 500 with an 18" barrel. If 5 rounds of 00 buck out of that wouldn't stop the problem, adding extended mag tubes, sidesaddles, flashlights, slings, and breaching attachments aren't going to help me. (For those who like tactical accessories for shotguns, more power to you, and don't let me discourage you, but I don't think they're necessary for the average person.)

Training to use a shotgun for someone who is experienced with firearms should not require a lot of overhead. Training to break 25 straight at trap requires a lot of overhead. Training to keep your buckshot patterns within an 18" circle at 7 yards, not so much.
 
Is the shotgun my first choice?

:rolleyes: Well it all depends on the situation.

If I have enough "lead time" when a situation developes, then I would choose my Remington Model 870 (loaded with #4 buckshot). However, if it is immediate threat and close by, then I would choose my Glock 21 (night sights/Streamlight tactical light) lying on my nightstand next to my bed.

Shotgun is in corner next to bed. Also, the racking of a shell into the chamber of my 870 makes a very loud and ominous sound which should alert the bad guy I am seriously armed. If it doesn't, then he gets to meet Mr. Remington up close and personal.....
 
i bought a police auction mossberg entry gun and turned it into a tactical shotgun back before the word tactical was stamped on everything. With a sidesaddle shell holder, lazer, flashlight and collapsible stock its the perfect "what was that noise" gun. Its got everything i need all together, it was cheap, and like someone else said, looking at the business end of a 12guage might be all someone needs to change their mind and leave you alone.
 
The choke of the barrel of a shotgun can determine the spread of the pattern of shot which exits the barrel. At Gunsite we tested the five shotguns that the 4 students used going through the shotgun class and John Satterwight's (the instructor) shotgun too.

Clint Smith was a student in that class with another instructor. They both used a Benelli semi-auto. I was using a Remington 870 with a 20" barrel with rifle sights and I suspect an open choke.

We found that when shooting a 12ga load with 9 pellets of 00 buckshot at Pepper Poppers that we could reliably knock one down out to about 25 yards with any of the shotguns. A 12 pellet load extended the range a couple of yards. It seems to take at least 4 pellets center of mass or higher to knock down a Pepper Popper at that range. Satterwight's gun had a full choke and could knock down the targets out to about 35 yards.

From that experience I now consider my shotgun to be limited to 25 yards with buckshot. Of course slugs are a different matter.
 
From that experience I now consider my shotgun to be limited to 25 yards with buckshot. Of course slugs are a different matter.

Which is of course more than 10 times the distance of the average SD encounter and probably at least 3, maybe 5, times the distance one would be shooting inside a home.
 
Holy bullcrap Batman!

Nothing signals danger quite like the unmistakable sound of racking a shell into the chamber of a shotgun.

O, I get it. You're talking about when the music get really dramatic and the hero says some catchy one liner and punctuates by racking a shell in his 12 gauge?

In reality, while racking a shell in your chamber for dramatic effect works well in the movies and stands a good chance of scaring an intruder, it's tactically foolish. It provides vital intel to the intruder that you do not possess about him/them, namely, your location and that you are armed. Intel is the difference between victory and a sucking chest wound on the battlefield, and anywhere you stand a decent chance of exchanging gunfire is officially a battlefield.

Even if you do go with a shotgun, you're far better off just keeping the thing loaded and leaving Steven Segal in Hollywood.

Except maybe a rattlesnake. Definite deterrant value there, but i don't want rattlesnakes in my house.

About the only thing in your post that makes sense.

For close quarters, especially in your home, you don't want to spray and pray.

Yeah, but who said anything about spray and pray? Not me. I even specified "aimed" fire. Why is it someone always assumes an advantage in capacity equates to a lack of marksmanship?

From a spray and pray point of view, 80+ whatever-sized round balls directed with a bead sight en masse qualifies a lot more than individually aimed hammer pairs from a rifle. It's simple probability. Every projectile has to be accounted for, and more projectiles stand a higher risk of collateral damage than less projectiles aimed individually with the same care.

Twelve shots of panic-fired jacketed .308s is formidable, but a miss is flying far and fast to who knows where.

Thus the reason you aim. And for the record, I don't know what you're insinuating, but there is no reason using a rifle for self-defense should result in any more panic-ed fire than a shotgun. The rifle is just more accurate, and gives the user more control over what gets a hole in it, and where that hole is.

A single shotgun shell at close range sends an ounce or more (an ounce is 437.5 grains, people, compared to 125gr 9mm, or 225gr .45, or 55gr 5.56) of lead in nice tight patterns - regardless of choke or shot size - inside 10 yards. Place that in the COM and the BG is down hard. Yes, energy is exponential to velocity and only linear to mass, but mass is a constant that cannot be ignored. Heavy things simply take longer to stop. Besides, if you're defending your family, do you want a little .3" hole (made with 2500ft/lbs but with a very high chance of pass-thru) or a gnarly 2" hole (made with 2000 ft/lbs that disperses all its energy in the wound) in the BG chest?

Yes, but each pellet has comparatively little mass, and thus, little momentum. A single 00 buck pellet weighs about the same as a single 5.56 round, or a little less, and its greater diameter means it has a lower sectional density. This means it sheds velocity faster and penetrates less. And that isn't necessarily a good thing.

The velocities produces by a shotgun are closer to those produced by handguns than they are to those produced by rifles. This means that the shotgun lacks the velocity to cause damage to organs beyond the immediate path of the projectile(s). So each buckshot pellet is carving a pencil-sized hole, with little or no damage occurring beyond the permanent wound cavity produced by the individual projectile. In effect, you're emptying a .32 caliber mouse gun in the general direction of the enemy and relying on the cumulative effects of these rounds to be more than the sum of its parts.

By comparison, you have a 168 gr Hornady Amax leaving an 18 inch M1A Scout at over 2500 fps. At, this velocity, shock forces produced by the projectile are violent enough to permanently tear and bruise vital tissue for several inches beyond the immediate path of the bullet. Plus, by virtue of its construction, this bullet fragments violently upon impact, losing nearly half of its mass to this effect. At its widest point, the crush cavity of this round, achieved somewhere around 6 inches of penetration, is over 5 inches in diameter. The projectile eventually comes to halt with barely over half its original mass and about twice its orignal diameter after penetrating about 16 inches of tissue--ideal for defensive application. This means that a single expanding .308 round possesses over 70% of the tissue displacement and wound cavitation of your average 12 gauge buckshot round. And because it has less recoil, and at least twice the capacity, the user can operate hammer pairs at in-house distances with a high-probability (at least as high as all your pellets striking the target at the same distance) of both rounds impacting on target, and he can still engage ten times without reloading once. Meaning the shotgun has the advantage in actual application in neither firepower nor terminal effect, when the rifle is employed in this manner.

Even assuming your energy dump theory holds water (and it doesn't), when and if the rifle bullet exits the attacker's body, it's already "dumped" more energy into the target than the 12 gauge round even possess.

And none of this comes at the expense of conventional advantages held by rifles, such as range and accuracy. A rifle carbine is at least as handy indoors as a shotgun, and even a 7.62mm battle rifle such as a FAL or M1A is going to be light enough that no adult capable of handy 12 gauge recoil should notice it, esp given the advantages associated with that extra weight.

I think Pete is correct - bird shot doesn't over-penetrate secondary or tertiary walls, but certainly still packs a wallop at short distance. The Pincus video is interesting, if not purely scientific. The beauty of lead shot is that at close range, it acts similar to a solid projectile but as it spreads or encounters resistance, it separates and acts like individual light projectiles, spending its energy faster hence the lower penetration at distance.

Penetration is your friend. Those who research these things (mostly by shooting things and analyzing the results) know this. Too little penetration is far more dangerous than too much penetration. Too little penetration gets you stabbed or shot (then the BG moves on to your family). Too much penetration might result in the bullet killing or injuring an innocent 3rd party, or their property. I'll take "will" vs "might" odds any day of the week.

Shallow, superficial wounds, such as those created by birdshot (at any range), are unreliable stoppers. Without damaging vital organs or the CNS, only pain response and the mental response of getting shot stand to stop an attacker. Even without other mind-altering substances, these responses are likely to be dulled by the adrenaline and other chemicals created in duress by the body. The only way to reliably stop an attacker barring a hit to the CNS, is by blood loss and damage to vital organs. This requires the round to penetrate to the vital organs, regardless of clothing encountered, or shot angle presented, and regardless of what skeletal-muscular obstacles the round encounters. This is why the FBI has a mandatory 12 inch of penetration rule, even after penetrating heavy clothing, or other obstacles. They prefer 14 to 16 inches, and so do I. Nearly half of all Americans are overweight, and 1/3 of them are obese. That means the chances of your round having to penetrate more than the 6 to 8 inches provided by birdshot is very high.

I've seen 6 and 7 1/2 shot fail to stop ground squirrels from perfectly centered patterns out of an extra-full turkey choke in my 870 Wingmaster at ranges I have in my house far too many times to trust birdshot on anything larger than a rabbit. Beyond 30 to 40 feet, exit wounds are the exception rather than the rule even on these 1.5 pound varmints.

Don't get me wrong - i like all my guns for their various uses. But my rifles are all hunting tools, powerful and accurate at long-range. For HD, in the middle of the night, I'd start with the shotgun. Just point and shoot. And repeat as necessary.

"Just point and shoot"? Now who is spraying and praying?

If, by your own admission, the shot acts like a single projectile at close range, that would seem to indicate that it still has to be aimed like a single projectile. And indeed, that is the case.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#.308
 
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I think I would always want the shotgun or any power rifle/carbine before the handgun. My shotgun skills are not so great but its enough to get the job done.
 
12ga noise level

One post expressed concern over shotgun noise indoors. A while back I had posted the same concern - don't remember which thread, it wasn't recent. Anyway, another poster came back with a table showing actual noise levels for common SD weapons.

If I remember correctly, the 12ga from 20" barrel came in around 155dB, and a .357mag from a 4" barrel came in around 161db; in any case there was a 5 or 6 dB increase from the shotgun to the magnum.

A shorter barreled .357 would be even louder.

So, if you're worried about shotgun noise inside, you might want to reconsider that .357 unless it's downloaded to .38+P.

In response to the original question, I'm still undecided as to whether I'd grab an 18.5" 12ga pump or a 16" 5.56 AR for a bump in the night. Given that the house is in the country (pasture and forest), the AR has a range advantage. The EOTech sight on the AR allows for very rapid sight acquisition, too, and its brightness is adjustable for ambient lighting conditions. Hard to beat a 30rd mag, and I've had a reasonable amount of training on M16 and M4... Guess for me, the AR is a better choice.

However, my significant other is a farmgirl, and is more comfortable with shotguns. I usually have a handgun and surefire available near wherever I sleep.

So, guess which one stays in the bedroom overnight, and which is in the safe?

(Can anybody say, if Mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy?)

Besides, the safe isn't all that far.


Cheers,

M
 
A SG would be pretty effective indoors for SD. Slugs only of course.

If I for some insane reason have to step outside...I'm taking a rifle.
 
While my handgun is the closest gun to my bed - it is there to allow me the chance to get to my shotgun. A shotgun beats a handgun any day, and a rifle beats a shotgun..........
 
with choice of ammo in each situation i would take a shotgun in any situation to at least 50 yards. Slugs past 30.

THe carbines you list will do any job pretty well from 5 to 400 yards, maybe a bit beyond, but there are better guns at almost all the specific ranges within that set.
 
When I am dealing with something requires more firepower...:p

Shotgun only becomes my first choice when I don't have my Walther P99 and tripped out Mini-14.
 
one thing about mossberg tacticals....

the safety stinks for stocks with pistol grips....it's on the top of the reciever. you must remove your stronghand to reach it. granted if it hits the fan you probably will have it kicked off long before hand, but in the event you couldn't, there's precious seconds lost. Don't get me wrong, I love the mossies, best duck hunting gun for the money, but the safety is in the wrong spot for pistol grips.
 
Always

As others have said, I think it comes down to familiarity. I personally reach for the shotgun because that's what I grew up with. Got my first 12 gauge when I was 12. Countless hours in fields, duck blinds, and the clays range have made that particular weapon like another appendage. For you the same may be true of your carbines (by the way - I wish I could claim a collection like that).

At ranges found inside the average home I don't believe a short barreled shotgun gives anything up to the carbine in handiness and probably has a more devastating effect on target. Another pro for the shotgun is the ability to choose from a wide range of available loads to control over penetration.
 
For MTMilitiaman

I don't mean to pick, but did you say you have failed to kill a squirrel with a 12 gauge at "in home" distances? The last time I shot a squirrel at "in home" range with a 12 gauge it took me 5 minutes to find a cleaned out hull of what used to be a squirrel 15 yards away wrapped around a sapling.
 
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