When to use slugs for HD?

I've seen a few folks killed with shotguns, forensic pics of others,and talked to a survivor or two.

A VC who received a full pattern of Milspec 00 went down right then.

A doper who took a 12 ga load at contact range mid abdomen stated he was unable to do anything but suffer.

A pic,taken at the scene of a homicide shows a fellow sitting on a couch behind a coffee table covered with empty beer bottles. He appears comfortable, except for the fact that his head is missing from the eyebrows up. The wall behind him is a gory mess.No other details given,except it was a shotgun w/ birdshot...

A talk with an acquaintance, a forensic pathologist who has done dozens of autopsies. He describes close range shotgun wounds as "bloody ratholes".His HD arrangments include a shotgun.
 
Jedi, You have posted an interesting question, don't have a good answer for you, except I keep a Benelli semi-auto 12 ga with an extended mag in the bedroom. Have 3 of the Activ 12 ga 3" penetrator rounds (duplex load of # 4 & 6 shot plus 5 Activ slugs loaded in it. Figure that by the time that it is empty, I should not have to worry about the BG. also have a Glock 27 within reach from the bed. If you are having a hard time finding a source for buck shot, have you looked at loading your own???Mel H <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jedi Oomodo:
I have noticed in a couple of other recent threads in this forum a mention of keeping slugs for an HD shotgun as an alternative to buckshot. I was just curious as to when or why one would want to use slugs in an HD situation? While I'm at it, I want to use #4 buckshot for my shotgun, but the only shells of that shot size I've ever seen around here were 3" turkey loads. Would something like that be appropriate for HD?

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Erick: I agree about using sights, I have them on my SG. Are you talking about setting a zero or about adjusting zero during a "situation"? No flame was intended. Just sharing the information I have been exposed and the impact it has had on me.

I like the SG for certain roles I just think that it is the wrong weapon for novice shooters for HD. I also think many people pick shotguns with shot to reduce over penetration and to compensate for marksmanship.

I think that 223 makes more sense for such use. Overpenetration is a small concern at close range with high/hyper velocity rounds.
223 ammo is cheaper and more enjoyable to shoot. And the 223 rewards good practice vs shotgun (to easy for even a skilled person to say well I hit the K zone even if was 5" from point of aim with buck or bird shot). With a shot loaded shotgun you always have to be aware of the range at every instant. While with a 223 and a 50 or 75 yard zero, for home defense, you will never need to worry about zero. I do not advocate "hostage shots". Unless you are out of sight of goblin and have a precision weapon and a rest.

Ah well, I know I don't follow the crowd on everything. I won't do room clearing except as a team member for example in training. I believe that one does react as one trains since I have done so myself. If I train to take hostage shots with a SG, handgun, or even a AR/Mini 14 chances are if TSHTF I will respond that way. I want to retain my fear of clearing a room alone...it is a stupid & dangerous thing IMO. Not to mention even if you can deal with the goblins involved, with only one person they can get away(just climb out a window and if they are really clever wait for you to exit building because you guard would be down)...and if them getting away is okay why expose yourself to the risk? Get a dog, get CCTV, get some buddies to help, use lsitening devices or noise generators.
 
Thanks everyone for your replies. I believe I'll go ahead and go with that #4 buck- I'll just look harder at the ammo shelves than I have in the past. I don't know of any cover in my house that would necessitate(sp?) slugs, but I'd rather have 'em and not need 'em than need 'em and not have 'em (gee, kinda like why I have a gun in the first place :D).

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Only in America, we're slaves to be free/Only in America, we kill the unborn, to make ends meet/Only in America, sexuality is democracy/Only in America, we stamp our god "In God we trust"

What is right or wrong?
I don't know who to believe in
My soul sings a different song, in America
-Creed, "In America"

The warrior kings lived by the sword/From hill to loch and dark fjord/Battling 'til his life he shed/leaving the throne/To the sons of Somerled...
Steve McDonald, "Sons of Somerled"

If it isna Scottish, it's CRAP! RKBA!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jedi Oomodo:
While I'm at it, I want to use #4 buckshot for my shotgun, but the only shells of that shot size I've ever seen around here were 3" turkey loads. Would something like that be appropriate for HD?
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Are you sure the 3" No. 4 is buckshot?
No. 4 Buck isn't used for turkey hunting is it? That would be No.4 shot for turkeys.
 
Turkey shot is #4 bird shot not buckshot. The difference between turkey load and game load is that it is faster and has 1 1/4 oz or more of shot. The shot also has higher antimony (magnum shot) and is nickel or copper plated. This makes it very hard and wont deform which produces denser patterns.

Shok
 
Thank you for clearing that up, Shok. So, when Ilook at a box of shells and it says "#4" how do I know if it's buck or bird? Granted, I haven't looked at a lot of boxes of SG shells, but I don't recell the ones that I have seen specifying the shot type. Was I just not looking hard enough? :confused:

Also, I was talking to a friend the other day, and he brought up another good reason to use slugs- it is becoming more and more common for the BGs to be wearing body armor. While I'm not a Kevlar expert, from what I've read even a Class II vest will stop buck shot, but I believe slugs would penetrate. Anyone else have any info, anecdotal or empirical, about the effectiveness of slugs against Kevlar? FYI, I'm not planning to use this info against LEOs- I'm a good boy! ;) If you don't want to post such info on a public forum, email me instead.

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"Anakin! Tell them to go to the TFL End of Summer Meet !"

If it isna Scottish, it's CRAP! RKBA!
 
Buckshot should usually be in a 5 round box. Though some of the turkey loads are in 10 round boxes.
Usually most birdshot is sold in 25 round boxes.
Also the box should be marked as "No. 4 buck" or No. 4 Shot. I suggest getting an ammo cat. from whatever brand you prefer. Or start with Federal. If you want email me and I can send you links to the main ammo companies. With a cat or the website you can get the product number for the load you want. I have found that is the best way to get what you want. Is going by the order number...for example Federal Tactical/Low recoil OO Buck is "H132 OO" then either Tactical or Low recoil for the order number. No one really seems to know if there is any difference between the Tac and low recoil load...i have 4 boxes marked "Tactical" but the hulls all say "Low Recoil".

Most gun shops can order you ammo that you want or you can get it online or mail order. But to be sure your getting what you want get the order number first.
 
I'd find that topic interesting, Erick, please post.

A B-more cop some years ago took a shotgun round at contact range square in the middle of his/her Kevlar. While he/she survived w/o long term problems, he/she was unable to return fire, situation resolved by the cop's partner.
 
I agree with Dave McC. The energy will be spread out with the shot, the slug would be akin to punching a BG with a couple of Harley Davidsons the size of a quarter. It would bruise the heart and possibly paralyze the diaphram. I know which one I'd prefer to NOT have shot at me, vest or not. I watched a surgery about a guy that got shot with bird shot though, in the upper abdomen. The surgeons couldn't do anything due to the hundereds of little wounds. The guy died. Perhaps alternating rounds of shot/slug/shot? I don't go around "clearing" my house anymore. I take a defensive position and make them choose to die or leave us alone. They can take anything they want in the house, but if they come down that hallway, they aren't leaving with anything other than a toe tag.
 
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