When to shoot?

Would not shoot a burglar trying to flee even though Florida law would probably recognize my right to do so.

If someone pulls a gun and asks for my wallet probably not. It would really depend on the situation, i.e. was I alone or with family, was the robber alone or with a partner, was the robber calm or nervous, drugged out, etc. You have to make a life and death split second decision using your instincts and gut feeling. Each scenario is different, there is no rule that will always apply other than to take a course of action that will minimize harm to yourself and family.
 
I have to think that if I give him my wallet he will shoot me any way.
I would toss the wallet just to the side ofhis off hand when he moves to pick it up Im going to try for it.

TO EACH HIS OWN
 
There is really no way to answer this question. Whether you attempt to access your gun and shoot someone is an equation made up of at least the following factors:

1. level of threat
2. ability to avoid threat
3. distance between you and threat
4. surprise element
5. your skill level
6. your carry method
7. innocent bystanders
8. ability to react in combat/high stress situations

Probably a bunch of others, each with varying degrees. Even if you tried to develop a sophisticated analytical program to predict when/when not to shoot, I'd bet that there are simply too many variables with too many varying degrees that it would make the resulting answer marginal at best. So, if I don't expect a supercomputer running sophisticated piece of software to answer this question, there ain't no way I've got the answer without being in the actual situation. Then I just hope my brain functions slightly better than some high-priced supercomputer.
 
To this day I still remember a lesson taught to me years ago by an old Louisiana Cajun repair shop owner who demanded cash payment for repairing my flat tire and all I had was a check.

In his words, in a thick, Cajun accent "...boyah, you don't have no cash on you? You gonna make that robber mad and he shoot you.." He then reaches into his left front pocket, pulls out a wad of cash and says, "you show him your cash and you thro' it dis way, and you go dat way, and he leave you alone 'cause he gonna go after da cash, and dats what he wants".

To this day, I keep my cash in a money clip in left front pocket and either my G26 or occasionally my PM9 holstered in my right front pocket. Might not work in all situations but it may give you the opening you need...
 
I have read a lot of what Marty Hayes says and I believe that he speaks the right answers to this type of question. He is well respected on alot of these boards.
 
I'm an NRA certified handgun instructor and I was instructed to NOT go into the legalities of when to shoot and justifications.
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Class I took last month was also by a NRA certified instructor, he showed 2 or 3 short films and at the end asked what was wrong or right.

One was the drug store dude shot a guy in the head, chased the other out of the store and fired on his retreating self, then went back inside got a new gun and shot the down robber 5 times.

Not everything is cut and dried, cant tell from words on paper what is really going on in any situation.

The gun isnt the first thing to go to, if you have this in mind you will surely find yourself in a heap O trouble.

I would never ever ever shoot at someone that is retreating, or someone wants my cash. Heck I would give it to him and ask if he was hungrey lets go get a bite. Maybe all he needs is a helping hand up. Hopefully that is, if not well then take the cash and go have a good time. I can replace the cash a lot easier than I can replace me. My kids need me to pay for their stuff :) like college food cloths etc.

Rambo was a movie, a bad one at that...... none of it was real.....
 
Our Concealed Handgun Permit instructors must cover this in the curriculum....... probably why the NRA Basic Pistol Course does not qualify as sufficient training.....
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Are the instructors in your area all judges or attorneys? Seems if I'm going to be giving out legal advice I should be trained in the field. Spent a full two days getting certified just to teach something as uncomplicated as safe gun handling and marksmanship skills. Couldn't imagine explaining law which my students will be using to base life changing decisions on.
 
I would never ever ever shoot at someone that is retreating, or someone wants my cash. Heck I would give it to him and ask if he was hungrey lets go get a bite. Maybe all he needs is a helping hand up. Hopefully that is, if not well then take the cash and go have a good time. I can replace the cash a lot easier than I can replace me. My kids need me to pay for their stuff like college food cloths etc.
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This begs the question......Then why do you carry?
 
markj, shooting someone in head(circumstances weren't explained), chasing and shooting someone multiple times retreating, going back, getting another weapon or relaoading and shooting someone 5 more times is a different situation. sorry to reference you(I read only the very beginning and very end postings so far).

answering the OP's original posting:

I wouldn't draw on someone who had his weapon on me unless I was positive I could successfully or if there was literally no other choice. people discuss the wrong time to draw and shoot a lot on this forum. Usually its the perception of 'in the law's eyes" and not when a BG can control your fate.

I wouldn't hesitate to take a life and/or shoot an attacker(s) if a 'true' situation happened to me and/or my family. I am not taking any chances, and in the 'true' situation I will have to think quick and squeak thru whatever doorway of opportunity I have. but this is just me, and I usually envision the encounter in my house and on my property defending my family. There is no getting around the fact thats different than a teenager asking me for my wallet in a walmart as some random example. If it happened quick and I thought he just needed some cash I am not going to shoot him, but again I am not going to draw on a person who has drawn on me unless I am positive I can successfully. I do agree that all bets are off when a firearm is pulled on me or my family. I will stop that if possible with deadly force if it goes that way. I am not looking to do something stupid with my firearm; I believe I will know the difference but its never happened so thats neither here nor there.
 
threegun said:
I'm an NRA certified handgun instructor and I was instructed to NOT go into the legalities of when to shoot and justifications....
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I'm NRA certified for Basic Handgun, Personal Protection Inside the Home and Personal Protection Outside the Home.

The NRA syllabus for the Basic Handgun class calls for very little discussion of the law -- essentially just the local law related to buying, storing, owning and transporting a gun. The Personal Protection classes are intended to cover self defense law in some detail, but the NRA requires that the law portion be handled by an attorney, an LEO or a certified law enforcement instructor. Since I'm a lawyer, I will often handle the law portion for other instructors around here.
 
NM requires that the course of instruction include the laws on the use of deadly force. The instructor I had explained the state law on the use of deadly force, and in addition discussed the "wisdom" of shooting under certain circumstances. The NRA safety course is not sufficient in NM.

Deadly force is to be used only if one fears death or great bodily harm. If someone demanded my wallet he could have it. It should be remembered that if you shoot someone it is just the beginning of expenses and emotional trauma.
If someone robs your home, and you see him as you arrive, consider that is why you have insurance. It will be cheaper and less stress to just let the insurance company pay the claim than to shoot and maybe be convicted of a crime because the DA does not believe that the criteria for the use of deadly force were satisfied. Same for seeing someone stealing your car.

In my view a course for CC that does not cover the law and discuss some likely circumstances is inadequate. Anyone who has taken the NM CC course should not have to ask the OP questions.

Regards,
Jerry
 
In my view a course for CC that does not cover the law and discuss some likely circumstances is inadequate. Anyone who has taken the NM CC course should not have to ask the OP questions.
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Simply echoing the law and sighting a few clear cut cases of shoots and no shoots does a prepared CCW holder make. There are tons of gray area situations that simply cannot be addressed in a half day course. Fear levels differ from person to person so that alone makes for a wide rangeing interpretation of fear of death or grave bodily injury.

Deadly force is to be used only if one fears death or great bodily harm. If someone demanded my wallet he could have it. It should be remembered that if you shoot someone it is just the beginning of expenses and emotional trauma.
If someone robs your home, and you see him as you arrive, consider that is why you have insurance. It will be cheaper and less stress to just let the insurance company pay the claim than to shoot and maybe be convicted of a crime because the DA does not believe that the criteria for the use of deadly force were satisfied. Same for seeing someone stealing your car.
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If you didn't give up your wallet what was the bad guy going to do? In Florida robbery equals intent to harm.

Thank goodness I don't live over there. Seems like your politicials have given the bad guys more rights than the victim.
 
I think a person needs to have more options than shooting. But that's easy to say, hard to do for someone who is elderly or frail or relatively immobile. Something less than lethal might be handy to have, not that I own any such thing myself.

I'd also say it's pointless to bring up the subject with a lawyer because the possible situations and outcomes are endless. While they might have some worthwhile advice, which they will charge for, they usually pull out the law books after something has happened.
 
Splitlear, might try using the search function for past threads as well, my lord has this topic been discussed at length.
 
Posted by threegun: Simply echoing the law and sighting a few clear cut cases of shoots and no shoots does [not] a prepared CCW holder make. There are tons of gray area situations that simply cannot be addressed in a half day course.
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Very true, as originally intended.

Fear levels differ from person to person so that alone makes for a wide rangeing interpretation of fear of death or grave bodily injury.
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However, anyone who does shoot someone will be measured against the reasonable person standard, and his threshold for trepidation will not enter into the outcome.

If you didn't give up your wallet what was the bad guy going to do?
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You do not know. But if he has a gun on you and you reach for yours, you have a very good idea about what he will do.

In Florida robbery equals intent to harm.
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I would be surprised if there is anywhere in this country in which that is not true. It isn't a matter of justification. It's a matter of risk and of the balance of expenses.
 
This begs the question......Then why do you carry?
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In case he doesnt want to be friendly. 2 sides to every coin. I like to think not all are bad, some act due to circumstances. Belive me I have been down and out, I know what it is like to have no food and hungrey mouths to feed. So if a guy wants to take something I think he must have a need and why not see if I can help out, if he isnt that way and wants to hurt me or mine, then the nice guy is done and Mr. Ugly gets let loose, no body wants to see that man, he does things that really hurt a person. And he is very large, over 6 feet and 300 lbs of farm boy. I carry a bale in each hand and can toss them as high as the barn roof. Tossed a semi wheel and tire over the sideboard of our 20 ft dump box grain truck, not to bad for an old guy. The looks on them faces :)

I would rather every one be friendly, but in case it dont happen, well boy scouts taught me to be prepared. But that dont mean go out and shoot everyone.
 
Easy to answer

That's easy.

As soon as you feel you are are about to be threatend with bodily injury or death.

SHOOT! And don't stop until the target is down.

Your intent is NOT to kill that person. Your intent is to STOP that person.
 
In case he doesnt want to be friendly. 2 sides to every coin. I like to think not all are bad, some act due to circumstances. Belive me I have been down and out, I know what it is like to have no food and hungrey mouths to feed. So if a guy wants to take something I think he must have a need and why not see if I can help out, if he isnt that way and wants to hurt me or mine, then the nice guy is done and Mr. Ugly gets let loose, no body wants to see that man, he does things that really hurt a person. And he is very large, over 6 feet and 300 lbs of farm boy. I carry a bale in each hand and can toss them as high as the barn roof. Tossed a semi wheel and tire over the sideboard of our 20 ft dump box grain truck, not to bad for an old guy. The looks on them faces

I would rather every one be friendly, but in case it dont happen, well boy scouts taught me to be prepared. But that dont mean go out and shoot everyone.
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Let me know how you can tell the nice bad guys from the mean ones so I can be like you.
 
[/That's easy.

As soon as you feel you are are about to be threatend with bodily injury or death.

SHOOT! And don't stop until the target is down.

Your intent is NOT to kill that person. Your intent is to STOP that person. QUOTE]
I think you need a PTC course and you better have 5 good attorneys after that post. Get some training.
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