When is a gun not a gun?

K

KBP75

New member
I am sure this topic has been discussed somewhere but not that I can find. I had a friend that is a contractor who travels a lot pass thru New Jersey. He has a cc permit from PA. He was stopped for a taillight out and the Officer asked if he had any weapons in his car. He told them he did. It was packed away in the trunk in his backpack. He forgot it was there until the officer asked. To make a long story short, he was in for a world of trouble. He had to go to court. He was able to plea down the felony he was charged with and lost his Kimber, had to pay for a lawyer and a very high fine. I guess he was lucky he ever got out of the state! Here is my question- What if the pistol was fully taken apart? What if was locked in a portable safe? I want to travel from PA to Texas and take one of my pistols for self defense down in Texas. Some states recognize my PA cc permit and some don't. How can I do this? I will be in Texas for some time. Can I ship any part of the broken down pistol to Texas and carry the rest? When is a gun not considered a gun? If I only have part of it with me or when it is fully broken down and stored in the trunk?:confused:
 
I believe the serialized receiver is considered the "firearm". Everything else is parts...barrel, slide, trigger, ect.
 
I have often wondered why, without probable cause, an officer even has the right to question if someone has a firearm in his possession. This is the only item the Constitution gives us a right to own. Are we required to respond? What if he asked if we have shoes in our car? Does he have that right? Are we required to respond? Just wonderin'........
 
Your friend said "Yes."

Your friend should have said "I have an unloaded handgun in a case in my trunk. I am transporting that firearm in accordance with, and under the protection of, the Firearm Owners Protection Act."


As far as what you should do... Google Maps has your route from PA to TX crossing into the following states, in order of travel:

Pennsylvania -CWP Issue State
Ohio - PA CWP Not Valid
Kentucky - PA CWP Valid
Tennessee - PA CWP Valid
Arkansas - PA CWP Valid
Texas - PA CWP Valid

Ohio is the only state where you would not be allowed to carry your handgun under provisions of your PA CWP during your transit. So the next question is "Does Ohio allow unlicensed vehicle carry?" No. So you'll have to unload, encase (preferably locked case), and store your handgun in a non-accessible area of your vehicle (trunk, cargo compartment of an SUV, under the backseat of a pickup, etc) in order to travel under the protection of FOPA.

Before I transferred and drove cross-country to Michigan, I mapped out my route and made a list of all the states I'd be traveling through. I made a folder for each state's gun laws and put them in a plastic collapsible organizer. When I crossed into a new state, I'd pull out that state's folder and take a look at the laws. Each folder contained the following information:

CWP Reciprocity with Mississippi (my CWP issue state)?
Unlicensed vehicle carry/special requirements (glovebox, etc)?
Must inform officer of carry?
Places off-limits with permit?
Handgun/magazine capacity restrictions?
Deadly force laws?
Castle doctrine apply to vehicle?

I would recommend anyone traveling across multiple states do something similar to inform yourself of the applicable laws where you will be traveling. This way, you won't be straining to remember whether you have to put the gun in your center console, or if you have to lock it up in the trunk.
 
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^^^ Exactly what jgcoastie wrote. Your trip is entirely different from your friend's situation. He was IN New Jersey, and not allowed to possess a firearm in New Jersey. End of discussion. He was extremely fortunate.
 
The purpose of asking is to be able to arrest citizens with no intention of committing a crime. Any criminal looking to harm the LEO (the purported reason for this asinine question) would always answer NO.

Answer as you see fit.

I keep a car where the LEO can see the contents of the passenger compartment, documentation is up to date and I have never had anything outstanding. I would never consent to a search, give no grounds to justify a officer safety search and would like to see the reason on a warrant.
 
I see this from a different perspective. If the firearm(s) were unloaded and secure (locked up). That is not a concealed carry--it is a transportation of firearms--which (as far as I know) as long as you are the legitimate owner and you are proceeding to/from either a scheduled match or a residence of yours--you are covered by FEDERAL law which supersedes any state laws.

As for not revealing that you have weapons--that most likely will go badly for you the way I see it. If the LEO asks if you have any--probably his background check already revealed something about firearms would be my guess--though I don't know how widely that info is shared between states.
 
If the LEO asks if you have any--probably his background check already revealed something about firearms would be my guess--though I don't know how widely that info is shared between states.
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I don't know of any state that attaches that information to a driver's license. In some states, if you have a carry permit, that information comes up in a license check in that state, but the information is not reported to any federal agency.

As far as simply owning guns...that wouldn't come up.

"Do you have any drugs or weapons in the vehicle" is a common question at traffic stops. If you're asked that, it doesn't mean you're suspected of something. The question is designed to provoke a response.

If a law-abiding person gets pulled over, and the officer asks that question, the reaction is normal. If someone's hiding something, they'll flinch, start looking around the cabin (usually right at whatever they're hiding), or they'll get nervous and start stammering. That's a cue to the officer to dig a bit deeper.
 
So what if a NJ trooper knows you have a TX permit (he shouldn't though). Where is the cause for a trunk search? How does an item in said trunk even come into officer safety?

If a NJ trooper finds a gun for anyone from another state in a trunk how do you think it will go over even if volunteered? Read the OP.

On subjects like this I am very Us vs Them with Them being the State. I am that way because it has been proven right time and again

I am under no oath during a stop and unless carrying under a permit with a requirement to disclose then I do not have to. In my own state, clearly within the law I have no problem disclosing. Especially carrying. In another state, unloaded and packed away, no threat to anyone and no legal compunction to disclose? Nope. To many politicians looking to hammer on gun owners and LEOs helping them. I remember the footage from Katrina and how US citizens were zip tied on their front lawns while LEOs held them at gunpoint, stealing lawful arms which to this day have not been returned. History is on my side here.
 
Tom is right on.

Knowing how you will answer such a question in advance is the key. Being uncertain is what kicks off the red flags. Again, I am not advising breaking any laws, only fully exercising your rights.
 
Musketeer said:
I am under no oath during a stop and unless carrying under a permit with a requirement to disclose then I do not have to.
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You may not be under sworn oath, but when a police officer asks you a question in connection with an official action (even a burned-out taillight stop), any answer you give is in response to an official inquiry, and if you lie you are committing a criminal offense. Not voluntarily disclosing is one thing. Answering "No" to a question when the truth is "Yes" could result in consequences.
 
Like answering "yes" did in the OP...

If I answer no there needs to be legal grounds to search or I must give permission which isn't happening. In the end I know I am transporting legally but over zealous enforcement can still harm me plenty while the wheels of justice grind me up until I am found innocent or charges dropped.

Personal decision and while I often side with the LEOs they have rarely been on the side of the 2A or COTUS when it comes to these matters. There have been enough well meaning individuals ground up by the system after voluntarily attempting to comply with the shifting laws and enforcement strategies around the 2A that I will never voluntarily give information which can only hurt me.
 
Hey, Tom Servo ... I'm wondering if my CHL from Texas shows up if I'm stopped in another state and they run my license ... what information are they looking at? The same stuff a Texas officer would see? I know it shows up in Texas ... I was stopped in Arkansas last summer, declared my CHL as soon as the officer arrived at my window, and the entire incident, including getting off with a warning, was very pleasant ... was raised in NJ, wouldn't go back if they were giving away houses at the shore ...
 
FOPA only applies if the gun is legal to possess at both the start and end of the trip, and only required stops are made (FOPA is not very clear defining what stops are allowed, but gas would be a required stop).

If you drive into NJ and stop or work, then return home it does NOT apply in NJ.

If you are on your way to New Hampshire it applies.

You have to follow ALL the conditions in FOPA to even try to use it as a defense, and that is all it provides in a number of New England states, a defense in court.

You can refuse to answer or tell the truth.

Lying to the police on anything 'official' is illegal, in and of itself.
 
Tom is right on.
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Wait, say it again. This time, more sultry...

Tom is right on.
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Oh, yeah. :)

I'm wondering if my CHL from Texas shows up if I'm stopped in another state and they run my license ... what information are they looking at?
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As far as I know, that information is sequestered in the Texas DPS database. I don't believe it's shared with other states, but we'll need someone from Texas to chime in to be sure.
 
KBP said:
I had a friend that is a contractor who travels a lot pass thru New Jersey. (emhasis added)
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If said contractor was, in fact, passing though NJ, why was this case brought to court -- much less pleaded out?
 
I have one clarification to make and it might be a game changer. The pistol was LOADED! He just forgot it was even in the backpack until he was asked then remembered and told the truth. By the time it was over, this mistake had cost him a couple of grand.(lost pistol, lawyer fees and fine) Since this was New Jersey(they don't recognize the Constitution or the Second Ammendment) I think he was lucky to not be in jail!
 
The gun being loaded would have been illegal in NJ and not protected by the federal law. Question? What would be the best thing to say in this case? Yes, gets you thrown in jail, no can get you thrown in jail. If you say "I do not wish to answer that question," are they going to search the vehicle anyway?
 
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