2ndsojourn
New member
No, they don't know. They can find out, like tulsamal said, up to the point of the original purchaser.
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When I buy a new gun, is it registered?
- Thread starter MrDontPlay
- Start date
No, they don't know. They can find out, like tulsamal said, up to the point of the original purchaser.
The OP asked about purchasing a new gun. Its not technically registered but the ATF can indeed find out who purchased a particular new firearm. Not secondary sales obviously but if it comes from a gunshop they know about it. Or can find out if they want.
My LGS in NV tells me when we fill out the forms, one copy goes to Carson City to NICS office. When you have CCW they don't call NICS, but the copy still goes. Do I believe the state toss' it? No way. If it goes to the state and filed...isn't that registration?? I truly don't know what the state does with it.
sigcurious
New member
My LGS in NV tells me when we fill out the forms, one copy goes to Carson City to NICS office. When you have CCW they don't call NICS, but the copy still goes. Do I believe the state toss' it? No way. If it goes to the state and filed...isn't that registration?? I truly don't know what the state does with it.
The state does nothing with it, because they don't get a copy of the 4473. Your LGS has misinformed you.
1.The last 5 digits of the Federal Firearm License number and name of the business.
2.The caller’s name.
3.The full name of the potential purchaser (last name, first name, middle name, suffix, maiden name or other names, if provided).
4.Potential purchaser’s state of residency.
5.Potential purchaser’s date of birth.
6.Potential purchaser’s gender (male or female).
7.Type of gun transaction (handgun or long gun).
8.Potential purchaser’s driver’s license number or identification card number.
9.State of issuance for driver’s license or identification card.
10.Potential purchaser’s country of citizenship.
11.Potential purchaser’s place of birth.
12.If the potential purchaser is not a U.S. citizen, the alien registration number or I94 number.
That is all the information the POS office at DPS gets. Same as any other background check call. (ETA: and SSN if you provide it)
Now if you happen to live in Clark county, your handguns do get registered. However, that's a separate issue, and unlikely what your LGS was mistakenly referring to.
FoghornLeghorn
New member
Several years when I was still living in California two campers were shot in their sleep while sleeping on the beach up around Crescent City. They were shot with a Marlin Camp Carbine in 45 ACP.
The local police went to all the area gun stores and perused the 4473 forms and got the names of everyone who had bought such a gun. They then went to the owners of the guns and asked them to "volunteer" the guns for testing.
They never caught the killer, but it made us realize that the 4473 is, in fact, registration.
The local police went to all the area gun stores and perused the 4473 forms and got the names of everyone who had bought such a gun. They then went to the owners of the guns and asked them to "volunteer" the guns for testing.
They never caught the killer, but it made us realize that the 4473 is, in fact, registration.
FoghornLeghorn said:Several years when I was still living in California two campers were shot in their sleep while sleeping on the beach up around Crescent City. They were shot with a Marlin Camp Carbine in 45 ACP.
The local police went to all the area gun stores and perused the 4473 forms and got the names of everyone who had bought such a gun. They then went to the owners of the guns and asked them to "volunteer" the guns for testing.
They never caught the killer, but it made us realize that the 4473 is, in fact, registration.
NO NO NO!
The 4473 is nothing more than a reciept. It only states that a person BOUGHT a weapon.
A Registry is a record of OWNED weapons.
The two are not synonymous, and suggesting they are the same is ludacris. Can they serve the same function? Yes. But I am sure many of us have reciepts from purchases we made in the past that we don't have anymore (food, energy, etc.) Same function.
Theohazard
New member
It's pretty simple. Unless your state has additional laws or you're using the digital 4473 form, the record of what specific firearm you purchased is only kept on the paper 4473 form at the physical location of your LGS, and in any other records your LGS chooses to keep. The only way the government can access this information is by contacting the LGS and requesting a trace, and that trace is only supposed to be done in the event of some kind of investigation.it made us realize that the 4473 is, in fact, registration.
Does this sometimes work as a de facto form of registration? Yes, it sometimes does. But it's not technically registration because the government doesn't actually possess that information.
Saying this is registration is like saying the government is listening in on all of our phone calls and reading all of our emails. Of course they're not. But they can listen in on specific people's calls and read specific people's emails, but they're only supposed to do so in certain circumstances.
Is this power sometimes abused? Sure it is. But at least it's abused far less because the government doesn't have easy access to all this information.
larryh1108
New member
Having access to information is different than registration.
With registration, if the government wanted to know everyone who bought an "assault type weapon" in the last year, they'd type the parameters into the computer and a minute later would print out a list with all the info.
With the system they have now, if they want the same info, they need to go to every FFL in the search area and have them pull all the sales in the same time period and they'd have to write down the info. It would take months and a lot of manpower to get the same info you'd get in minutes with registration. Yes, the same info is available but access to it is a huge difference.
With registration, if the government wanted to know everyone who bought an "assault type weapon" in the last year, they'd type the parameters into the computer and a minute later would print out a list with all the info.
With the system they have now, if they want the same info, they need to go to every FFL in the search area and have them pull all the sales in the same time period and they'd have to write down the info. It would take months and a lot of manpower to get the same info you'd get in minutes with registration. Yes, the same info is available but access to it is a huge difference.
Whether you want to admit it that or not, a 4473 is a form of registration.
From Online Dictionary:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/register
Hard to see how filling out an official 4473 is anything other than an official recording of items and names.
It may not be a very efficient registration. That just means that anyone wanting the information on what you bought will just have to work a little harder. Or if they have the authority, just spend more tax dollars on additional people tracking down the info.
From Online Dictionary:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/register
reg·is·ter (rj-str)
n.
1.
a. A formal or official recording of items, names, or actions.
b. A book for such entries.
c. An entry in such a record.
Hard to see how filling out an official 4473 is anything other than an official recording of items and names.
It may not be a very efficient registration. That just means that anyone wanting the information on what you bought will just have to work a little harder. Or if they have the authority, just spend more tax dollars on additional people tracking down the info.
Dr Big Bird PhD
New member
How voluntary was this "Volunteering" of testing?FoghornLeghorn said:Several years when I was still living in California two campers were shot in their sleep while sleeping on the beach up around Crescent City. They were shot with a Marlin Camp Carbine in 45 ACP.
The local police went to all the area gun stores and perused the 4473 forms and got the names of everyone who had bought such a gun. They then went to the owners of the guns and asked them to "volunteer" the guns for testing.
They never caught the killer, but it made us realize that the 4473 is, in fact, registration.
If it was actually voluntary, I would have closed the door. If it wasn't, I would have called my lawyer.
Theohazard
New member
reg·is·ter (rj-str)
n.
1.
a. A formal or official recording of items, names, or actions.
b. A book for such entries.
c. An entry in such a record.
It is understood by both anti- and pro-gun people that any "official recordings" of a firearms registry would involve the state actually possessing that information. But the information is only kept at the physical location of the LGS, making it not technically a registration.
I wouldn't use a dictionary to prove a technical point; I could "prove" that a clip is the same as a magazine by showing you the Merriam-Webster entry on the definition of "clip". Dictionaries don't give technical definitions, they give definitions based on etymological word usage.
FoghornLeghorn
New member
Whether you want to admit it that or not, a 4473 is a form of registration.
Don't confuse them with the facts. Their minds are already made up.
Does this sometimes work as a de facto form of registration? Yes
Hence, it is in fact, registration.
How voluntary was this "Volunteering" of testing?
It was "voluntary" in the sense of, "Unless you want to become a person of interest........."
FoghornLeghorn
New member
The 4473 is nothing more than a reciept.
Seriously? When you buy a weapon, the FFL calls in your personal data for the background check. You don't think the govt logs that information? You don't think that information can be cross referenced according to name/type of weapon purchased? You don't think that somebody at the ATF can pull up that info at will?
You don't think the govt logs that information?
If they can and do, they are breaking the law. Period.
Gregg
Theohazard
New member
The ATF cannot pull up that information at will. When the LGS calls in the background check, no information about the firearm is given other than if it's a handgun, long gun, or other.Seriously? When you buy a weapon, the FFL calls in your personal data for the background check. You don't think the govt logs that information? You don't think that information can be cross referenced according to name/type of weapon purchased? You don't think that somebody at the ATF can pull up that info at will?
Evan Thomas
Inactive
They are also required by law to destroy all your personal identifying information. If I'm remembering right, the time limit is 24 hours for approved transactions, and something like 6 months for denials.
Let's, please, not make claims that this doesn't actually happen. We have no evidence to support such notions, so such speculation takes us right into conspiracy-land -- and that's a very short trip.
Let's, please, not make claims that this doesn't actually happen. We have no evidence to support such notions, so such speculation takes us right into conspiracy-land -- and that's a very short trip.
Seriously? When you buy a weapon, the FFL calls in your personal data for the background check. You don't think the govt logs that information? You don't think that information can be cross referenced according to name/type of weapon purchased? You don't think that somebody at the ATF can pull up that info at will?
Simple answer ... NO !!! A FFL could call them and do a NICS check on you, and then you decide you don't want that gun, but another one he has... and he can sell you the other one because he just did the NICS check on you. You could buy 10 guns on that single NICS check. The NICS check is purely, is it a handgun (have to be 21) or a rifle (have to be 18 or over). It's not gun specific.
Then ... if you sell the gun 6 mo's later because you just didn't like it at all.... no, they would not know who had it if you didn't remember who it was you sold it too.
AS said many times in here, Co - sn # - tracked to Distributor - to FFL to 1st purcahaser of the gun. The FFL in most states, is the only person that has any paperwork that ties your name to that specific gun.
That DEAR SIRS ; is the reason they want UNIVERSAL BACKGROUND CHECKS on ALL SALES ....... and a 4473 done on every gun sale ....... it's the first step towards registration.
The Feds are supposed to destroy that information. Do you trust them?
I don't. They are people. People are fallible. They make mistakes, or have agendas or incentives to do other than what they are supposed to be doing.
This is the information age- everything you post about here is in somebody's (or multiple somebodies') data base, somewhere.
It would not surprise me a bit if the goverment knew every gun I had, and how much I shoot ..... they have the resources to do so, and the current PTB definitely have an anti-gun agenda ...... I don't like it, and think it is a horrible thing in an allegedly Free country, but it IS.
I don't. They are people. People are fallible. They make mistakes, or have agendas or incentives to do other than what they are supposed to be doing.
This is the information age- everything you post about here is in somebody's (or multiple somebodies') data base, somewhere.
It would not surprise me a bit if the goverment knew every gun I had, and how much I shoot ..... they have the resources to do so, and the current PTB definitely have an anti-gun agenda ...... I don't like it, and think it is a horrible thing in an allegedly Free country, but it IS.
jimbob86 said:The Feds are supposed to destroy that information. Do you trust them?
I don't. They are people. People are fallible. They make mistakes, or have agendas or incentives to do other than what they are supposed to be doing.
This is the information age- everything you post about here is in somebody's (or multiple somebodies') data base, somewhere.
It would not surprise me a bit if the goverment knew every gun I had, and how much I shoot ..... they have the resources to do so, and the current PTB definitely have an anti-gun agenda ...... I don't like it, and think it is a horrible thing in an allegedly Free country, but it IS.
The joys of this (in your words) "allegedly" Free country, the accused have rights. The burden of proof is laid upon the accuser, and the accused is considered innocent until proven guilty. Making allegations about things we assume to be true is at best faulty logic and at worst fear-mongering. Unless you have evidence, you get to pick your catagory from the above.
FoghornLeghorn said:Whether you want to admit it that or not, a 4473 is a form of registration.
Don't confuse them with the facts. Their minds are already made up.
Hello pot, meet kettle.
FoghornLeghorn said:Does this sometimes work as a de facto form of registration? Yes
Hence, it is in fact, registration.
Uh, not really. If the 4473 were registration, it would follow the weapon, which it DOES NOT! It records the initial sale of a weapon. Just because I can use a theasaurus to help me spell a word and understand what it means, doesn't make it a dictionary. Hence our friend referred to it as a "de-facto" registration, since that is not it's lawful function, but how it's used in practice.