When did 2 handed shooting become cool?

Don't sweat the hold too much
In another 5 years we're all going to find out how wrong we were doing it all along.


Everything changes

I still Tea Cup.
get over it

AFS
 
Shooting styles seem to come and go. In the 1950s, to be much of anything, you had to be a fast draw artist, just like all those guys on television. Some folks even thought a single action revolver was the best thing you could have for combat. And there was a parallel line of thinking that you should do all your combat shooting single action, even though you probably had a double-action revolver. So revolvers quickly evolved to suit the fad and probably the K-38 was the best example. Earlier, the S&W Combat Masterpiece, later called the Model 15, had been what everyone wanted, but it had a lightweight barrel. Some K-38s were made with a single action only trigger. Most of them came with wide triggers and hammers.

While the K-38 was essentially a formal target revolver, in a sense the trend was entirely logical since the goal of the combat shooter and the target shooter was the same, although the rules were a little different.

When two handed shooting was invented, one style was to grasp your wrist with the supporting hand but I doubt anyone does that anymore. Won't work with an automatic, either.
 
The type of two handed shooting we see today is really the result of Jeff Cooper deciding to run matches at Bear Lake in California in the mid 50's. He figured that if he had draw and shoot matches that were not restricted i any way as to equipment and technique, that the natural progression of things would lead to some type of form following function, and something of value would emerge. Jack Weaver was the guy who essentially developed the Modern Technique by winning matches against the one handed quick draw guys and gals. A solid hit beats a fast miss any day. A fast solid hit is of course the ultimate goal.
 
Vintage Anchorage Police Department Pistol Qualifications, some stages were one handed, some two handed.

APD%20firearms%20training-sitting.jpg

APD%20firearms%20training.jpg


They even had a shotgun phase with phyical activities.

apd%20shotgun%20training.jpg
 
Looks like the "Jelly" Bryce crouch...

http://www.gutterfighting.org/jellybryce.html


Interesting....
a.) It looks like most of those guys above would miss the target & shoot high.

b.) I would not want to get on the bad side of that one old geezer...the one with the funky hat & looks like he's wearing a tie. That old fart looks way too comfortable...almost to the point of being bored...
My bet is he could run the table against the other guys.
 
How old are those photos?

I think it's interesting that they had to shoot one-handed but they could use ANY stance. (It looks like a mixture of kneeling, TV cowboy quick-draw and squatting to poop in the woods.)

As others have stated, I think the two-handed technique become popular because of Jack Weaver.
 
Here is an experiment.

Shoot a target 2-handed right-handed.

Shoot a target 1-handed right-handed.

Shoot a target 2-handed left-handed.

Shoot a target 1-handed left-handed.


Monty
 
Here is an experiment.

Shoot a target 2-handed right-handed.

Shoot a target 1-handed right-handed.

Shoot a target 2-handed left-handed.

Shoot a target 1-handed left-handed.


Monty
Click to expand...
Monty, what is "two-handed right-handed", etc. If you're holding the gun in both hands (two handed) how do you do that right handed or left handed? I honestly don't understand what you mean. Explain?
 
he probably means two handed holding the gun in the right hand, and tow handed holding the gun in the left hand.

Jack Weaver popularized the two handed hold that is known as the Weaver stance. When other people found he was winning matches, they adopted it, or something like it.

Other people got on board, other two handed stances were created and pushed by their proponents. Some work better for some folks than others.

By the 1970s, with IPSC and PPC becoming the popular games, two handed was the way to go, unless the particular stage rule forbid it.

The cops began coming around to the two hand stance at about that time also.
 
NSB -

Sorry about my terminology. Maybe I should have used "dominant" and "weak" instead of "right' and "left".

Shoot with a normal "dominant" grip, 2-handed and then single-handed.

Then reverse your grip, with the "weak" hand gripping the handgun, and the "dominant" hand supporting. The "weak" hand index finger will manipulate the trigger. Use your "weak" eye for sighting.

Then use only the "weak" hand for gripping and trigger pull, as well as your "weak" eye for sighting.

I hope this is clearer.

Monty

P.S. "Weak" hand and trigger finger and eye can be uncomfortable at first, but surprisingly accurate, if one is persistent (at least for me).
 
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Monty, 44 AMP- Thanks. Makes sense now. I guess I'm a little slow on the pick-up today (and a lot of other days too). I've tried shooting weak hand before and it really feels akward but you're correct, you can do better than you think. If I were in law enforcement I'd be doing this type of practice shooting a lot more. It could save your life at some point.
 
I cannot explain it, but many times my "weak" hand and eye (left for me) shoot better than my "dominant" side (right). Just plain target shooting, nothing defensive.

Don't let your feet get confused, however!

Monty
 
It became popular with me back when I found out how much more accurate I

was shooting two handed.

Couldn't say when it got popular with everyone else...:cool:
 
I recall reading years ago-it might have been in Guns and Ammo-an acount of Patton's experiences in the Villa Expedition. The article mentioned some old time shooters down there using a two-handed hold and achieving notable results at long distances. And Sykes and Fairbairn did teach the Isoceles hold to their students in Hong Kong. In No Second Place Winner
Bill Jordan is using a two handed hold even when firing from the waist and there are some photos in Ed McGivern's book of shooters doing the same. I would credit Cooper with its popularization, since he advocated for the 40 years or so that he was an active writer and columnist.
 
+1 for Jeff Cooper and practical competition that eventually grew and morphed into IPSC/USPSA. (At least this is how I've read it in various places)

Cooper figured competition would find what works best. The definition of "works" in the early years included testing holster retention and other things no longer of much interest in IPSC/USPSA. (thus the IDPA variant of "practical" pistol shooting)
 
Cooper was right; competitors would use what worked best--in competition. While there really isn't much wrong with that, formal competition has a way of formalizing style, too. And trainers do the same thing, almost trivializing the details, by which I mean placing undue emphasis on foot position, elbow height and so on. I suppose it is inevitable. But I do remember reading an article written by Jack Weaver himself criticizing those who had read too much into his shooting stance, so to speak.

Given some of the things that I realized I was doing in practice over the last few weeks, I wonder how difficult it is not to do the same things you have been doing in practice when it comes time to do the real thing?
 
Two handed shooting was always in the repertoire, going back to the earliest days of the handgun. We know this from old books and illustrations and in the last century photos, books and film in which we can see it taught. The two handed hold was used mostly for times when a longer range and more accurate shot was needed. It was used kneeling, laying down, while braced and free standing. But most defensive shooting was taught as a one handed affair both in the military and law enforcement.

In the early part of the last century two strains merged and mingled in the military and law enforcement. The first was the military tradition of one handed combat shooting which had come down from the cavalry and the other the Fairbairn-Sykes school of point shooting which greatly influenced the British Commandos and the U.S. military. Both knew two handed shooting but it was decidedly secondary to one handed. These traditions dominated police and military shooting.

Two handed shooting was not used in bullseye competition. It was only a small part of police competitive shooting matches.

As others have said this began to change in the post World War II period due to the rise of combat shooting matches as a competitive sport and this development being led by Cooper and his associates. At the time this was known as the California Revolution and was the first time that non leo or non military folks ( some were ex-military or former leos and some active duty or like Jack Weaver a firearms instructor for his Department) had a decisive impact on how both the military and law enforcement utilized handguns. Cooper had the idea that not enough importance was given to training folks in the use of the sidearm. He believed that a handgun could be a more effective tool than it was considered by the military or law enforcement. He set out to change that and founded the first school with that goal in mind, Thunder Ranch. Many similar schools exist now and leos and the military send folks to them for training. It has become an industry.

Part of this was the increased use of a two handed hold for fast and accurate aimed hits. One handed shooting was also taught as an essential part of the package but the old relationship between one handed and two handed shooting, where the latter was seldom used, was gone forever.

tipoc
 
One point I was trying to make in my last post was that, if you do most or all of your shooting using two hands, would you be more likely to use two hands in an "emergency," shall we call it? It doesn't follow that that would be either good or bad and it likewise doesn't follow that you would achieve a greater hit probability either, though it might help your chances. I imagine that you'll never know what you'll do until you go through it, no matter what you may think. At least when it's all over, you'll have a much better idea about such things, assuming you survive.

I have not done all of my shooting at an indoor range but that's where the bulk of it took place. What a difference shooting outdoors is! Suddenly distances seem astronomically long, the light is different, it isn't level and clear and that's not the end of it. Oh the other hand, an indoors range might simulate a lot of other shooting conditions rather better anyway, so it is a toss up. But you are inhibitied from moving around or even using another shooting position, sometimes. And unless you make an effort to do otherwise, you get used to the idea of having a table in front of you. What kind of bad habits do we develop at a range?
 
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