When a female knocks at the door.

[Mike Irwin]

"Do you know the law in your jurisdiction?"

Yes.

In Virginia, it's very simple.

We have no Make My Day Law, we have no Castle Law.

However, in similar situations that have occurred over the years, most prosecutors seem to fall back on the customary tenets of English Common Law which treats a man's home as his castle and allows him to defend it as such.

Of course there have been some examples where prosecutors decide to throw their weight around. Those always make the news then fade away.

 

[Wildalaska]

I'll let your own words speak for themselves on this one. I should think no further comment necessary.

Excellent analysis

Cower...so ridiculous it doesn't even warrant comment

really? Cower....definition:to shrink away or crouch especially for shelter from something that menaces, domineers, or dismays

Now how is that ridiculous, except as it may offend masculinity

That's pretty uneducated, but ok. Someone trying to force themselves into an obviously occupied domicile is no longer a property crime. It is now viewed, not only by me, as a threat on the welfare of the occupants.

Hanging was viewed as the appropriate penalty for stealing a bolt of cloth under the Bloody Code. I don't consider my disdain for the bloody nature of the Texas penal Code to be uneducated...perhaps you would care to debate about the political and economic background of draconian laws to demonstrate our relative educations in this regard.....

Why the obsession with cowering? Is this a proven strategy that accomplishes anything? No. Cowering is not going to make a criminal stop. Cowering is not going to prevent, slow, or deter crime. Measured, sometimes violent, response and reaction will.

Well if you knew the definition of "cower" the first part of your statement would have been obviated. Regardless, who appointed you judge, jury, and superhero to deter crime by your "measured, sometimes violent" actions.

It aint deterrance, its self defense

Sorry, I didn't grow up in a generation where, by and large, society was full of good people. I am 25. My entire life has seen the scams and cheap tricks that 'people' pull on each other.

LOL.

WildithoughttwicesoleftitatthatAlaska ™

 

[Wildalaska]

Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or
great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to
have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great

To respond in your exact words:

"Lodge this in your cranium for later access"

Viz: Presumptions are rebuttable.

Of course there have been some examples where prosecutors decide to throw their weight around. Those always make the news then fade away.

And that dose of reality, along with the vagaries of the law and the financial cost of making things "fade away", makes me again scream from the rooftops.....Last Clear Chance...pulling the trigger is the last, absolute last resort.

WildknowyourlawsAlaska ™

 

[cloud8a]

I think if someone was kicking in my door and I took cover under the stairs, in the bathroom, or in a closet, then concealed my weapon, and cowered there, my wife would probably divorce me if the family survived the home invasion.

And she would be right. I offered zero protection to my family. What good would I be to my family if I had such an extreme squishy point of view on home defense? According to that logic an outside the house SD situation gives the BG the right to shoot you.

wildalaska might be a run no matter what kind of guy on the SD/HD front, but I think the majority of Americans disagree with that attitude entirely. The evidence being the implementing of CCW laws and Castle doctrines. Americans do not think running and hiding as a rule is the right thing to do, for a number of reason. Among those reasons, fiercley protecting your family.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

Why is "cower" assumed to be out of fear? Why is "cower" assumed to have a negative connotation?

What would those who despise "cower" be doing? Standing tall and proud, uttering the words "Come what may..." with the sights trained on the door?

 

[cloud8a]

Wildalaska
"I don't consider my disdain for the bloody nature of the Texas penal Code to be uneducated...perhaps you would care to debate about the political and economic background of draconian laws to demonstrate our relative educations in this regard"

So then the Castle Doctrine is according to you a bloody draconian law. CCW in your car without a license is a bloody draconian law. CCW is a bloody draconian law. you think all these are the result of bloodthirsty masculine insecure men.

I think you have gone a little overboard with the 'getting in touch with your feminine side' philosophy. Masculinity has a purpose, or it would not exist. In American culture there are unwritten rules of honor which men have carried down from the dawn of time. These things have enabled MEN to survive and protect there families through MASCULINE qualities that are unique to their gender. And now in civilized times these have been turned into LAWS in order to continue that survival.

 

[DougO83]

Excellent analysis

Ahh...personal attack. When all else fails, go for the flame attempt stand by.

really? Cower....definition:to shrink away or crouch especially for shelter from something that menaces, domineers, or dismays

Now how is that ridiculous, except as it may offend masculinity

No...why on earth should I have to cower in my own home? That is beyond ridiculous. Where, if not my home, can I find solitude, peace, and protection? Being behind my door is about all the 'cowering' I should have to do. I have no obligation to protect someone who is acting in a manner that is perceived as a threat. That is just not how it works.

Hanging was viewed as the appropriate penalty for stealing a bolt of cloth under the Bloody Code. I don't consider my disdain for the bloody nature of the Texas penal Code to be uneducated...perhaps you would care to debate about the political and economic background of draconian laws to demonstrate our relative educations in this regard.....

Show me where this is in the Texas Penal Code. Go on...I'd love to see it.

Oh, "Bloody Code?" Are we now bringing England into the discussion?

Well if you knew the definition of "cower" the first part of your statement would have been obviated.

I am well aware of the definition of 'cower.' Once again, you come out with the snide attempt to degrade the intelligence of others. You still did not answer why you are so obsessed with allowing the criminal to have their way. Cowering is hiding. It is crouching in fear or shame. That is all. It is not heroic, it is not a manner of defense.

Regardless, who appointed you judge, jury, and superhero to deter crime by your "measured, sometimes violent" actions.

Always just fabricating away, aren't we? I am none of the above and never made such claims. Protecting my home and property from a threat is a right I have. As I stated before, if my family is around, it is no longer a right, but a RESPONSIBILITY.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"Viz: Presumptions are rebuttable."

When it comes to penal law as quoted, WRONG. Those aren't my words, once again, they are the black letter law of California.

That wording means that the homeowner has the absolute right to act in such a situation and state penal code is automatically on his side, even if the prosecutors are not.

Prosecutors would have to prove that the homeowner acted outside of the confines of 198.5, say by actively luring the individual into the home, or presenting the individual with an open door invitation.

But an intruder FORCING his way into an occupied dwelling? The homeowner is then permitted under law to act as he sees fit in response, up to and including the use of deadly force.



"makes me again scream from the rooftops.....Last Clear Chance...pulling the trigger is the last, absolute last resort."

Did I, or anyone else, EVER say anything to the contrary? I don't see anyone here saying "Shoot BEFORE they start knocking on the door!"


And, I raise the question once again, Ken...

"Regardless, who appointed you judge, jury, and superhero to deter crime by your "measured, sometimes violent" actions."

WHY are you selling firearms that you KNOW have a very high liklihood of being used defensively? That just screams of hypocrisy -- I abhore it, but I'll gladly make money from it!


"Bloody law"

??? Unless you can show a legal citation that the Texas Penal Code is so named, and that doesn't stem from anyone's very active imaginations, back off on such terms, people.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

I am well aware of the definition of 'cower.' ... Cowering is hiding. It is crouching in fear or shame. That is all. It is not heroic, it is not a manner of defense.

Merriam Webster:

cower

One entry found.

Main Entry:
cow·er
Pronunciation:
\ˈkau̇(-ə)r\
Function:
intransitive verb
Etymology:
Middle English couren, probably from Middle Low German kūren
Date:
14th century
: to shrink away or crouch especially for shelter from something that menaces, domineers, or dismays


Apparently not, since what it means is crouch or hide behind cover for shelter from a threat.

Most everyone would agree that finding cover is of primary tactical importance in a SD/HD situation.

Seeking "shelter" ("cover" in SD) is not out of fear or shame. It is out of SMART.

I'm not trying to be heroic. I'm trying to protect my family AND still be alive AND out of jail when it's over. Seeking a good hiding place while the actual paid enforcers of the law do their thing is not cowardice, it is intelligence.

 

[Wildalaska]

I think if someone was kicking in my door and I took cover under the stairs, in the bathroom, or in a closet, then concealed my weapon, and cowered there, my wife would probably divorce me if the family survived the home invasion.

LOL.......I think she should divorce you for abandoning her.

Anyway, please show me where I advocate anyone abandoning their family to the predation of a criminal

So then the Castle Doctrine is according to you a bloody draconian law. CCW in your car without a license is a bloody draconian law. CCW is a bloody draconian law

LOL.....nice try.

you think all these are the result of bloodthirsty masculine insecure men.

I think you have gone a little overboard with the 'getting in touch with your feminine side' philosophy. Masculinity has a purpose, or it would not exist. In American culture there are unwritten rules of honor which men have carried down from the dawn of time. These things have enabled MEN to survive and protect there families through MASCULINE qualities that are unique to their gender.

Somehow I dont see bloodthirstyness, rage and chestthumping as masculine qualities

WildbacktomyneedlepointAlaska ™

 

[pax]

Moderator Note

Guys, I'm sitting here with my hand on the close-switch for personal attacks & borderline personal attacks.

But every time I start to hit the button ... well, there's enough good stuff here that I'd hate to close it.

So here's the deal: please tone down the rhetoric. No more calling the other guy a GIRL. No more accusations of "chest-thumping" or "bloodlust." Stick with the point under discussion, or go post somewhere else.

And if you find yourself getting hot under the collar, give yourself a break and go do something else for awhile. It's not worth getting ulcers over.

Thanks,

pax

 

[DougO83]

peetzakilla

Apparently not, since what it means is crouch or hide behind cover for shelter from a threat.

Most everyone would agree that finding cover is of primary tactical importance in a SD/HD situation.

Seeking "shelter" ("cover" in SD) is not out of fear or shame. It is out of SMART.

Oops...try again:

cow·er (kour)
intr.v. cow·ered, cow·er·ing, cow·ers
To cringe in fear.[/COLOR]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Middle English couren, of Scandinavian origin.]

cow⋅er  /ˈkaʊər/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kou-er] Show IPA
Use cower in a Sentence
–verb (used without object) to crouch, as in fear or shame.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Origin:
1250–1300; ME couren; c. Norw, Sw kūra, MLG kūren, G kauern

Related forms:

cow⋅er⋅ing⋅ly, adverb


Synonyms:
cringe, recoil, flinch, quail.

cower (ko̵u′ər)

intransitive verb

to crouch or huddle up, as from fear or cold
to shrink and tremble, as from someone's anger, threats, or blows; cringe
Etymology: ME couren, prob. < ON base seen in Dan kūre, Sw kura, to squat; akin to Ger kauern < IE base *geu-, to curve, bend > cod, chicken

Emphasis mine...

 

[Wildalaska]

When it comes to penal law as quoted, WRONG. Those aren't my words, once again, they are the black letter law of California.

I suggest you look at the Evidence code, dont have tiime to give you the full reading...its page after page of presumptions....Fell free to PM me and we can go over the elements of the offense and how the defense of justification under the CA penal code is applied, as well as the burden of proof and burden of going forward on each and every element of the offense and the defense......

WHY are you selling firearms that you KNOW have a very high liklihood of being used defensively? That just screams of hypocrisy -- I abhore it, but I'll gladly make money from it!

I'm not again going to debate that with you, not get into tu quoque ad hominems, especially since you have moved into you Mod status.

??? Unless you can show a legal citation that the Texas Penal Code is so named, and that doesn't stem from anyone's very active imaginations, back off on such terms, people.

Really...So it's impermissble here to claim that those portions of the Texas penal law that allow the use of deadly force on those stealing...say...a two dollar shovel from someones yard at night are the functional and social equivalent of the Bloody Code?

WildatleattheretheygaveyouatrialfirstAlaska ™

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

I say again:

Most everyone would agree that finding cover is of primary tactical importance in a SD/HD situation.

Seeking "shelter" ("cover" in SD) is not out of fear or shame. It is out of SMART.

I'm not trying to be heroic. I'm trying to protect my family AND still be alive AND out of jail when it's over. Seeking a good hiding place while the actual paid enforcers of the law do their thing is not cowardice, it is intelligence.



If cower CAN be out of fear it does not NEED be out of fear. How about addressing the SUBSTANCE of the question, rather than finding countless internet adjectives?

The correct response in this situation is to remove oneself from the threat to the maximum degree PRACTICAL and SAFE. It is neither practical nor safe to stand in front of ones door while someone is trying to break it down, kick it in, or is banging away like a nut job.

The most practical and safest response is to retreat to a safe area in your house and let LE do their job. That would be the job that YOU pay them to do.

Would your wife feel better about your gathering her and the children in a safe area, arming yourself for defense and calling the police or you standing in the open with a gun to address the threat head-on?

 

[TailGator]

My blood pressure is a little lower than it was on at least one of my earlier posts, so I will, a bit more calmly, revisit some points that have not been addressed by those who criticized the tactics of Marinewhatever whose story precipitated this last flurry of activity.

He responded to a person trying to get into his house by taking a position in the living room in sight of the front door, but leaving it closed and locked. WA, that would seem to fit your definition of cowering, wouldn't it? I cannot argue that he should have retreated further, because my home is arranged with one bedroom of the living room within sight of the front door, and the other two bedrooms off of a hallway the entrance to which is also within sight of the front door; the living room is therefore the furthest I can retreat and still be certain that my family is safe. I don't know if the home of the poster is arranged like that, but my parent's home has that in common with mine, and so does that of my best friend, and one of my two next door neighbors, so I am inclined to think that it is not rare.

So he very well may have retreated as far as he could and still command access to the places where his family was. He gave a loud and clear verbal warning and called the police. He maintained his position until qualified law enforcement personnel arrived. If the person attempting to gain access to his home through a locked door was attempting to do so illegally, she was now in the hands of the police. If that person needed help, she had ample opportunity to respond to his warning by verbally conveying her need so that he could evaluate it and respond appropriately, but she chose not to do so. Even though she made no request for any assistance, the homeowner's summoning of police allowed her to request assistance from them upon their arrival.

If we are to discuss tactics rather than character, I have to ask, for the third time, what should he have done differently? He has been harshly criticized hereon, but I have not read a post that suggested a viable alternative to his actions. I will answer my own question by stating unequivocally that I think he acted appropriately and thoughtfully to what could well have developed into a threatening situation.

Thank you, Pax, for your note, and I sincerely hope that this post is taken as it is intended, as a plea to return to a discussion of tactical options in the given situation.

 

[Wildalaska]

If we are to discuss tactics rather than character, I have to ask, for the third time, what should he have done differently? He has been harshly criticized hereon, but I have not read a post that suggested a viable alternative to his actions.

I for one havent critisized his actions, I merely asked him a series of questions in response to his averment to the door pounder that she would be shot

These questions were, again:
"Shot for what Kicking your door in? Was she a threat? was she committing a burglary? What is the governing statute in your jurisdiction ? Can you shoot someone who kicks down your door and enters without more?"

None of which have been answered by the poster.

WildandithinkhedidwellnottoanswerthedoorAlaska ™

 

[comn-cents]

I still don't get it.

Don't open your door if you don't know the person.
Call 911, if she is running from someone and you see this person attacking her/he on your front door step. Put a bullet in them (the attacker)
I don't see it getting more complicated than that.
The End!

There are so many "what if's" that I can think of but it's pretty simple.

People have created this untrusting world and I'm willing to be part of the village to help make it better. But I won't put my family in danger.

This reminds me of the same people who hate the police the most, also scream the most when they aren't there fast enough to help them.

 

[DougO83]

These questions were, again:

"Shot for what Kicking your door in?

Nobody has shot anybody yet. We are discussing whether or not we should be prepared to do so. And yes, you can be shot for kicking a door in. B&E of an obviously occupied dwelling is a situation where lethal force can be justified.

Was she a threat?

If one has drawn their weapon, sought out concealment or what have you, and has decided to call 911, the person is CLEARLY a threat. The average citizen has no responsibility to even attempt to determine the intentions of someone attempting to beat their door down.

was she committing a burglary?

Who knows? It is not my job, or any citizen's job to figure this out. Burglary, per Webster's, is all about intent:

the act of breaking and entering a dwelling at night to commit a felony (as theft) ; broadly : the entering of a building with the intent to commit a crime

How, wild, does one judge another's intent? I understand that this works both ways. Most assume the affirmative in this situation. It isn't very common for someone to break into a home with good intentions.

What is the governing statute in your jurisdiction?

This is the most important bit of discussion out of all 4 pages. What does your state say? Mine says I can shoot. As I have mentioned, I will try other options first, but rest assured that I am running every scenario, even the absolute worst, through my mind. I don't advocate 'daring' someone to come through the door, but they will certainly be made aware that I feel threatened by their attempts.

Can you shoot someone who kicks down your door and enters without more?

Well, yes, you can. "I was in fear of my life." Regardless of age, gender, number, etc...one can consider it quite reasonable to be in fear of their life if a person kicks, or is attempting to kick, a door down to enter a residence.

It all boils down to two things it seems: Jurisdiction issues and Morality. This is not to say that lethal force in this situation is moral or immoral. I feel that it is a strictly amoral choice. Sure, it has consequences, but I think it is a personal decision that cannot be rebuked or questioned by those not personally involved with the incident. When I read about homeowners defending themselves or another criminal killed by LE, I do not jump for joy and praise the death of another. OTOH I do not pine away at the loss. I am rather indifferent on the matter, the only solace I see in a shooting death situation is that a crime was stopped. Death is a tragic thing, violent death is much more so. I do not hope to deal it out to anyone, but I will if forced into that situation.

If cower CAN be out of fear it does not NEED be out of fear. How about addressing the SUBSTANCE of the question, rather than finding countless internet adjectives?

You were soundly proven wrong, now we are going to discuss substance?

The correct response in this situation is to remove oneself from the threat to the maximum degree PRACTICAL and SAFE. It is neither practical nor safe to stand in front of ones door while someone is trying to break it down, kick it in, or is banging away like a nut job

.

Neither is hiding in a safe room. Many homes are not equipped with one. All the rooms in my home have a window to the outside. Nothing "safe" about that.

The most practical and safest response is to retreat to a safe area in your house and let LE do their job.

There is a small problem here. We call it 'response time.' Police departments have taken budget and staff cuts hard this year. That means less manpower without a decrease in reasons to need police assistance. It's been in the news for a while now...

That would be the job that YOU pay them to do.

I pay the police to do a plethora of tasks. That doesn't make them any less overworked. Even right now, at 1530, if I was to call the local PD, I could be guaranteed about a 20 minute wait on a call. They are busy and they are few.

 

[RevJim]

Texas Killer

I must say, I find some of the comments quite interesting! Texas has always had a different culture, some would say a gunslinger mentality. For those who have not lived in Texas or were not born in Texas, it is easily misunderstood. Many laws were written when Texas was a sovereign nation, so they are different than other states.

Texas is indeed a bloody, violent state. We really can shoot people for stealing a $2 shovel, but only at night. So you can imagine that thousands upon thousands of criminals get gunned down every year for petty larceny and shoplifting. Gunfights in the street, bullets spraying across neighborhoods! We really live in the Wild, Wild West!

Actually, Texans pride themselves, not on gun-toting rights, but on common sense and common descency. We do not shoot people for stealing shovels or hats or even cars. In Texas, we know that our stuff is not worth a life, even someone who cheapens his life to the value of a $2 shovel. But we also believe in right and wrong! Our laws are designed to deter crime and allow law-abiding citizens to live and let live.

In theory, one should cower as far from a threat as possible (one should consider both denotation and connotation of a word), but in reality it may not be that easy. When someone starts banging on the door in the middle of the night, it is not always a swift task to get the whole family in one place to cower, seek shelter, and evaluate. I am envious of those of you who can. I would need to carry children from different rooms to a common area. I am sure many of you could do that while carry a gun, calling 9-1-1, and staying vigilent as to the actions of the person/persons banging on my door. I do not possess these qualities. I would, however, place myself between the door and my family. If anyone burst through the door, I would start blazing away Jesse James style!

Please understand: Texas has different laws because we have a different culture and mindset. Our laws would not work in another state, and another state's laws would not work here. So please do not refer to our laws as Draconian or Bloody, and please do not insinuate that we love to gun people down for petty offenses.

The homeowner in Texas opened the door to strangers. As has been stated, this ploy has been used many times. I have heard of several such attempted home invasions being thwarted by the display of a weapon. Perhaps the homeowner woRarely do I hear of innocent people gunned down in the dark of the night (I can only think of one, and that happened 15 years ago).

I know Texans are weird and we have weird laws. But they work for us!

 

[TailGator]

I for one havent critisized his actions, I merely asked him a series of questions . . . None of which have been answered by the poster.

I am often in your camp, WA, but I have to say that I took your posts as being highly critical of his actions, not the least because you signed it with a reference to testosterone.

Considering the accusatory tone of the responses to his post, it may well be that he has chosen not to participate further in the discussion.

May I remind you, in a friendly way, that neither you nor any of those participants who joined you in questioning his actions and motives, have responded in any way to my questions about alternative courses of actions? Your point that we need to know the laws in our jurisdiction are well taken, but in a forum on tactics and training should we not be discussing tactics? The question, honestly and sincerely, remains open, what other tactic besides taking a defensive position and calling the police do you have to recommend? If you prefer, perhaps I should rephrase the question this way: Are there jurisdictions in which kicking the door in on an occupied dwelling would not be considered a threat justifying the use of lethal force, and if so, what defensive tactics remain in those jurisdictions?