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What's with the two "lines"
- Thread starter Prof Young
- Start date
The upper cannelure did line up with the bottom of the original RN lead bullets. With an HB wadcutter it won't line up, unless, perhaps, with a DEWC.
Here's an example of a modern bullet for which you can make out the bulge that mirrors the bullet base location, having the case cannelure correspond to it. In this instance, the only value would be letting you see at a glance the size of the seated bullet is. However, for functional purposes, it is lubricated lead bullets, which one can often push deeper into a case with one's thumb, that would most benefit from having a ledge to sit on in the case. The old 38 Longs had them pretty commonly as did .38 Special. Not a cannelure, as they roll in today, but a groove rolled into the case. The cannelure seems just to be a modern version of the form. You can see the old form in the photo of four rounds near the top of this page.
Here's an example of a modern bullet for which you can make out the bulge that mirrors the bullet base location, having the case cannelure correspond to it. In this instance, the only value would be letting you see at a glance the size of the seated bullet is. However, for functional purposes, it is lubricated lead bullets, which one can often push deeper into a case with one's thumb, that would most benefit from having a ledge to sit on in the case. The old 38 Longs had them pretty commonly as did .38 Special. Not a cannelure, as they roll in today, but a groove rolled into the case. The cannelure seems just to be a modern version of the form. You can see the old form in the photo of four rounds near the top of this page.
I think they stopped doing the double cannelure about 40 some years ago, possibly a bit longer.
Remington 38 Special Wadcutter ammo still has two cannelures.
Nick,
Maybe on the single cannelure case where the cannelure is located higher up on the case, but the upper cannelure on the wadcutter brass is located half an inch below the case mouth. That would require the 158gr lead RN bullet to have a total length of 7/8 of an inch for the base to align with the upper cannelure. Not likely.
Don
Maybe on the single cannelure case where the cannelure is located higher up on the case, but the upper cannelure on the wadcutter brass is located half an inch below the case mouth. That would require the 158gr lead RN bullet to have a total length of 7/8 of an inch for the base to align with the upper cannelure. Not likely.
Don
As the photos I linked to show, for any RN the original grooves did line up with the bullet bases and on some modern loads the cannelures do. Why the wadcutter forward cannelure is exactly where it is, I don't know. I suppose it might line up roughly with the base of the bullet in the 200-grain Super Police load.
Uncle Nick,
Did this "cannelure" system of identification extend to pre-war full power 38 Spl. wadcutter* factory ammunition?
*In that era, the moniker "Mid-Range" applied to lower velocity target wadcutter ammunition.
See 38 Special full charge clean cut 148 grain, on this 1941 Winchester Jobbers price list:
http://cartridgecollectors.org/content/catalogs/WESTERN/WCC-1941-2 Jan-Jobbers PL.pdf
Did this "cannelure" system of identification extend to pre-war full power 38 Spl. wadcutter* factory ammunition?
*In that era, the moniker "Mid-Range" applied to lower velocity target wadcutter ammunition.
See 38 Special full charge clean cut 148 grain, on this 1941 Winchester Jobbers price list:
http://cartridgecollectors.org/content/catalogs/WESTERN/WCC-1941-2 Jan-Jobbers PL.pdf
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Since the internal dimensions of wadcutter brass is different (see Ed Harris' article on wadcutters here: https://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/articles/38wadcutterQA.htm), there is absolutely nothing to stop the manufacturers from placing cannelures in different positions on non-wadcutter brass. In fact, Federal places their single cannelure for their wadcutter brass at .5 inch below the case mouth, while with their regular load .38 Special brass it is only .25 inch below the case mouth. And since I already stated how the upper cannelure with Remington wadcutter brass aligns with the lower bullet cannelure on their HBWC, it is clearly there for more than just identification purposes.
Don
Don
That's a very good article by Ed Harris. I shoot my own home cast wadcutters (Lyman #358495) usually over 2.7 gr. of Bullseye or 3.1 gr. W321. Frankly I like the W231 load just a little bit better.
A few years back I go a very good deal on a case of Winchester .38 Spl. target ammo with 148 gr. wadcutter bullets. When I ran a test using them against my homemade target ammo mine was noticeably better. I'm not that good a handgun shot but after several range sessions in each case my groups with my hand load were better than the pricey factory ammo. I'll use up the rest of that factory stuff in my M60 S&W for practice and reload the brass with my bullets.
Paul B.
A few years back I go a very good deal on a case of Winchester .38 Spl. target ammo with 148 gr. wadcutter bullets. When I ran a test using them against my homemade target ammo mine was noticeably better. I'm not that good a handgun shot but after several range sessions in each case my groups with my hand load were better than the pricey factory ammo. I'll use up the rest of that factory stuff in my M60 S&W for practice and reload the brass with my bullets.
Paul B.
jetinteriorguy
New member
When I first started loading 148gr wadcutters I used any brass. Since reading Ed Harris's article a couple years ago I've segregated my wadcutter brass and there is a noticeable difference in accuracy for me. With Missouri Bullets DEWC at 10 Brinnel with a .358 dia. over 3.1 gr BE I've had excellent results.
I happened to have some new, never loaded or fired Starline brass in .38 Special. Keeping in mind this brass is already sized to be loaded, I found a 0.355" pin gauge was about as large as could slide in with some friction, but it stopped rather abruptly at a distance of -0.640" in past the mouth, so that's where the taper to the head area gets thick in it. On Ed's recommendation, I bought a couple thousand of the Remington wadcutter bullets the last time they were available on Midway, and they measure 0.630" in length. So they should do very nicely using the Starline brass as wadcutter brass for them and experience no reverse tapering of the hollow base skirt in the case.
RMcL,
I don't have an answer to your question regarding which dates and loads were involved. I'm not a cartridge collector, so I am having to go on photos and memory of examples I've seen in the past. The cannelures used as an ID code is interesting and I am thinking of calling and talking to someone who makes revolver cartridges with cannelures to learn exactly what they do or don't mean today. I have seen cannelures in .357 Mag brass gradually iron out with repeated loading and firing, so they must have enjoyed some degree of indentation "below grade" originally. But they can't hold a candle to the depths of the ring grooves that used to be formed by manufacturers, so I expect the purpose has changed over time.
RMcL,
I don't have an answer to your question regarding which dates and loads were involved. I'm not a cartridge collector, so I am having to go on photos and memory of examples I've seen in the past. The cannelures used as an ID code is interesting and I am thinking of calling and talking to someone who makes revolver cartridges with cannelures to learn exactly what they do or don't mean today. I have seen cannelures in .357 Mag brass gradually iron out with repeated loading and firing, so they must have enjoyed some degree of indentation "below grade" originally. But they can't hold a candle to the depths of the ring grooves that used to be formed by manufacturers, so I expect the purpose has changed over time.
Nick,
That's good to know about Starline .38 Special brass. I've just got a few previously fired cases, so I'll give them a try. The absolute worst for deep seated wadcutters has to be PMC - got a huge bulge mid-case with them. I also got a case of the Remington HBWC's from Midway before Remington stopped selling them.
Don
That's good to know about Starline .38 Special brass. I've just got a few previously fired cases, so I'll give them a try. The absolute worst for deep seated wadcutters has to be PMC - got a huge bulge mid-case with them. I also got a case of the Remington HBWC's from Midway before Remington stopped selling them.
Don
jetinteriorguy
New member
It would be interesting to see what size pin gauge would fit in some wadcutter brass as a comparison.