What’s the smallest handgun that is still effective at 100m?

7.62x25mm Tokarev
Bullet Weight: 90 gr
Initial Velocity: 1700 fps
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1700fps is considerably higher than any data I have for this round, fired from a handgun. Like about 300fps higher. My books spec the 87gr @ 1390fps, so where is 1700fps coming from? A carbine??



But it has me wondering, how small can you go before your pistol is basically a near-contact weapon? It seems these days a lot of the smaller pistols are made with 15yds as “long distance.”

ETA: And by “effective”, I mean able to deliver A or B zone hits on an IPSC silhouette with enough energy to penetrate 12” of ballistics gel at 100m.
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15 yards IS long distance for some people with some guns. And, its kind of long distance for a justifiable self defense shooting. It happens, but its a lot less common than shorter distances, and small pistols are made for ease of carry and concealment, not ease of accuracy at longer ranges.

There are several parts to your question, accuracy at 100m, power at that same distance, and finally smallest gun combining both.

I can't speak to what will penetrate 12' of ballistic gel at 100m, sorry. Never had to defend myself from ballistic gel at any range...:rolleyes:

As to accuracy, there is this,..

The A/B zone is only 6" wide. There aren't many handguns that can reliably hit that at 100 yards even if fired from a Ransom Rest.
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this is an opinion, which I happen to disagree with, though I've never specifically tried to hit the A&B zones at 100 yds, I used to shoot the 200 yd gong (admittedly considerably wider, but at double the distance) and I've had dozens of guns that can hit it, in my hands, OFFHAND.

I'd say hitting that target at 100yds is the shooter, more than the gun. Service class semi autos are about the worst for that, but it CAN be done.

Stationary target, and taking the time needed for the shot, I have done it, and I've even done it with pocket pistols. Takes time (shots) to LEARN the gun, but once learned, its not terribly difficult, for me, anyway. But, I've been shooting that 200yd gong with pistols for 30+ years, so I might have a small edge in experience there. :D

Smaller pistols, with coarse, to really crappy sights, and generally inferior trigger pulls make the task much more difficult, but it can be done.

Doubt even a master class shooter could do it under "combat" conditions, but it is possible. There is a documented case of a good guy taking out a bad guy with his 9mm service pistol at over 70 yards, so it is possible.

I'd say the answer to part of your question would be finding someone who can make the required shot, then see what the smallest gun he can make it with, is, and go from there.

Good Luck!
 
Some tough requirements:
1. A/B zone, so what, 6" wide target?
2. Penetrate 12" gel

Human-size silhouette targets are not safe at 100 yards against someone with decent shooting fundamentals, a rest of some sort, and a .38spl J-frame S&W they are familiar with. A/B zone would not be something I could whack with a J-frame at 100 yards, though good adjustable sights would make it more likely. And I am not sure about 12" penetration. Possible with a LSWC, I suppose or FMJ or LRN.

To hit a 6" wide target at 100 yards likely would require more sight radius and muzzle velocity. So, 4" bbl K or L-frame S&W in .357mag. LSWC ought to penetrate 12"+.

GM sized 1911 ought to be able to meet the two requirements, the smaller 1911s less so. 9mm, .38super, 10mm would make it easier.

After a bit of thought, I think a 9mm* Officer's ACP could manage it:
1. Good, square, high contrast sights, even if fixed...and fixed generally can be drifted to be on for azimuth at 100 yards.
2. Good 1911 trigger.
3. 9mm: moderate recoil, decent MV, adequate penetration with FMJ.
* Better, .38Super if such is offered in OACP format.

Now I feel like taking my wife's 9mm OACP out and trying it.
 
44 AMP said:
7.62x25mm Tokarev

1700fps is considerably higher than any data I have for this round, fired from a handgun. Like about 300fps higher. My books spec the 87gr @ 1390fps, so where is 1700fps coming from? A carbine??
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You need a different book. Winchester's 7.62X25 Tokarev has a 85 grain bullet moving 1654 fps from a 4.75" barrel. Sellier & Bellot shows a 85 grain bullet at 1857 fps from a 11.25" barrel. Hornady has load data for a 90 grain bullet at 1700 fps from a 4.75" barrel (page 845 tenth edition). I've easily made 1600+ fps from a 5" barrel with 85 grain bullets and published load data from Sierra.

44 AMP said:
7.62x25mm Tokarev

this is an opinion, which I happen to disagree with, though I've never specifically tried to hit the A&B zones at 100 yds, I used to shoot the 200 yd gong (admittedly considerably wider, but at double the distance) and I've had dozens of guns that can hit it, in my hands, OFFHAND.
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My 100 yard estimate is opinion since I haven't shot a handgun at that range for a while. But based on my Ransom Rest data at 25 yards with lots of pistols, I stand by my statement. Some guns and ammo can't keep the shots in 6" at 25 yards. 6" at 100 yards translates into 1.5" at 25 yards. Any handgun that can keep all it's shots in 1.5" at 25 yards is exceptional - even with the ammo it likes best. Sure, some bullets will hit the A/B zone at 100 yards, but it will be a minority at best.
 
74A95 said:
Some guns and ammo can't keep the shots in 6" at 25 yards. 6" at 100 yards translates into 1.5" at 25 yards. Any handgun that can keep all it's shots in 1.5" at 25 yards is exceptional - even with the ammo it likes best. Sure, some bullets will hit the A/B zone at 100 yards, but it will be a minority at best.
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I think this gets close to the point. If the question is "What gun can hit the A or B zone at 100 yards," the implication would have to be that the shot has to be repeatable. Take the shooter out of the equation, put the gun in a bench vise or Ransom rest, adjust until a shot hits the center of the A zone ... and then fire ten more shots. If all ten shots don't fall within the A or B zones, then the gun is mechanically not capable of meeting the criteria.

Most semi-automatic handguns, even full-sized, aren't capable of that kind of accuracy. For example, Les Baer charges a premium for a pistol guaranteed to group within 1-1/2 inches at 50 yards. His standard pistols (which are still considered to be top shelf 1911s) are supposed to group within 3 inches at 50 yards. So to get a 1911 with even a remote chance of reliably and consistently grouping within 6 inches at 100 yards you're looking at a standard-grade Les Baer pistol or equal. That's for a 1911 with a 5-inch barrel.

I don't think the question originally asked has any practical, real world application. Any half decent shooter should be able to "walk in" a bunch of shots and finally place one round in the A or B zone. Irrespective of the inherent accuracy of the firearm, if the shooter can't repeat the shot for 4 out of 5, or 7 out of 10 shots, then what difference does it make if the gun can put all 5 or all 10 rounds through the same hole at 100 yards?
 
I have seen shooters not be able to stay in the A and B zones at 10 yards. I don't believe any of my hand guns could handle the 100 yard challenge and I am sure I could not. I know that it is not a serious question, just a what you think type question . But I always looked at handguns as self defense and if the bad guy is 100 yards off I am just going home.
 
I think one of the biggest challenges with using small guns is the decreased sight radius. It is much harder to make precise shots especially since most of the sights are usually meant for much closer ranges. If you have nice small fiber optic sights, it may help, but longer sight radius makes a big difference. If you have a tiny gun with groove only, good luck hitting anything consistently.

As for effective energy, 100 yards isn't that far for a pistol round. According to gundata.org American Eagle drops from 1120 fps at the muzzle to 959 fps at 100 yards for a loss of 14.375%. The energy drops from 345 to 253 lb-ft. Bullet drop was 12.03" for that given round. The energy at 253 lb-ft is enough to incapacitate someone. How fast will it incapacitate someone? That depends on where they get hit. Is a sub-compact pistol ideal to engage someone 100 yards away? Not really. If push comes to shove and you need to defend yourself, you do what you have to do with what you have to do.
 
Wont be many “small” handguns that can penetrate 12” of gel at 100 yds. Would expect it to be magnums only.
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According to my balliistics calculator, a 9mm 124gr Gold Dot that starts at 1100fps is still at 940fps at 100m. If anything, I’d wager penetration will increase as the bullet drops below the velocity where it reliably expands.

As to accuracy, with a 6” A-zone, it seems a pistol/shooter that will hold 12” at 100yds (about 3” at 25yds) should give you about 50/50 odds of landing an A-zone hit if you are consistent in your application and skill. So your chances that one out of three shots ends up in the A-zone would be fairly respectable.
 
I imagine that all of the popular service cartridges would be capable of 12" of penetration in gel at 100 yards so getting the hits would be the issue.

There was an incident in 2012 where an armed citizen got four hits with a .357 on a man armed with a rifle. The man with the rifle had murdered two of his neighbors and was shooting at a police officer when the citizen engaged him at fifty yards and stopped the bad guy. There are incidents where police and MPs successfully engaged armed attackers at longer ranges than fifty yards using their service handguns.

An off duty officer in Athens GA engaged a robber who had just shot a security guard. The officer used an Airweight and got a hit across the parking lot that wounded the robber. The robber wasn't stopped but the wound led to his capture in a few hours. I don't remember what the distance was but I do remember it being far greater than the seven yards that is mentioned as the average gun fight distance. Making a hit with his Airweight at long range while the robber was shooting at him with a full sized 1911 impressed me.

None of that answers the OP's question but it seems like the folks I have read about getting stops at distances greater than 40 yards were all using duty sized weapons.
 
"...able to deliver A or B zone hits..." That's more about the shooter than the firearm. A .25 ACP FMJ will go right through a 2 x 4 at 100 yards though. Assuming you can hit it. The 4" side being 3.75" not 4". I recall it being a Baby Browning. It wasn't recently or by me.
 
T. O'Heir said:
A .25 ACP FMJ will go right through a 2 x 4 at 100 yards though. Assuming you can hit it. The 4" side being 3.75" not 4".
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Either you're showing your age, Sir, or 2x4s are different in Canada than they are in the U.S. When I first started out as an architect in the early 1970s, a "2x4" measured 1-5/8" x 3-5/8". Within a very few years that had morphed down to 1-1/2" x 3-1/2" and it has remained there ever since.
 
Rough cut they are still 2x4". Take 1/4" off each side, giving the smooth surface usually desired, you're down to 3.5x1.5" .
 
I've shot my Glock 27 at 20 yards standing and that's about as far as I can be effective with it. Any further and I need to be rested. Have tried 50 yards with it sitting and rested and it's not a guarantee, maybe 33 to 50 percent of the time I hit.

I'd have to say a revolver, probably a 3 inch barrel with adj. sights and it has to have a light SA trigger and be no larger than .38 in caliber. I have a 2 inch snub .38 Armscor/Rock Island and I was doing well with it standing at 50y. Give me a better revolver and a 3 inch barrel and I can probably do 100y 3 out of 4 shots.
 
Eh, I’ve shot my Glock 26 standing out to 100yds with no trouble. It wasn’t 100% hits; but you wouldn’t have a lot of time to think “What is that idiot doing?”

At the same time I’ve missed a head shot on a target at contact distance with a 642. Not just “didn’t hit head” but “missed entire target after pressed the muzzle against desired target area.” 99.99% of my trigger time was with single-action semi-autos and given a double-action, I ganked the trigger.
 
I’m with Aguila Blanca. With present company excepted :D , I don’t think there are many people that could hit a Pickup truck at 100 yards in 3 shots.
After watching people shoot at several ranges most of the general public probably couldn’t hit a pickup truck at 25 yards.
 
I will agree that "most people" aren't great shots. But, why does it matter what "most people" can, or can't do??

Most people don't shoot my guns, I shoot my guns, and if I can do something most people can't, then yay for me...:rolleyes: Doesn't mean most people are any less, just means I have a skill they don't.
 
I think most people just lack the opportunity to try it so of course, they don’t really develop any skill in that area. At my peak, I was maybe a B-class shooter and I’m probably more of a C-class now. It is still doable for me though it would require some concentration on my part and the short sight radius would be an issue since I don’t get much opportunity to do it myself these days. My point being it doesn’t require any special skill so much as it requires the facilities to try it - outside of a private range, that can be tough to find.
 
A .308 Win will make the shot every time, and it'll fill your big game tags.

A handgun is a close range weapon.

It wise to use the right tool for specific jobs.
 
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