What's the purpose of a 6.5 creedmoor when there's a 260 Renington ?

M

Metal god

New member
I ask because I see the creedmoor more and more ( is that to many mores in a row ) :D

I've been wanting a 260 Rem for my next long range rig . This will be the rig I sink some real money into but I keep seeing the creedmoor all over the place . I want the 260 because I made a choice awhile back to stay in the 308 case family . Not all rifles I own of course but the majority will be in that family . This way I'll likely always be able to find brass or convert what I have to what I may need .

Now the ballistics seem about the same . You can size a 308 case to use for both . Among others the only real difference I see is the shoulder angle .

So why is the creedmoor becoming so popular while the 260 "seems" to be getting less love these days ? Is the Creedmoor designed in some way to be more accurate , easier on barrels ? What is it about this cartridge ?

260 Remington
http://www.saami.org/pubresources/cc_drawings/Rifle/260 Remington.pdf

6.5 Creedmoor
http://www.saami.org/pubresources/cc_drawings/Rifle/6_5 Creedmoor.pdf
 
Like all runs on guns and cartridges, a bunch of articles were written. With the paper punching crowd it MAY make a difference, but the average shooter could not produce the difference. Remember when the .260 hit the seen? How about the .338 Federal? Writers generally get some form of consideration from the producers of new items.
 
Due to the case design the 6.5 Creedmoor handles the longer bullets with better BC's better than the 260. For most people the difference isn't enough to worry about.

A good comparison would be the 6mm Remington vs 243 Winchester. The 243 came out 1st, the 6mm was a slightly better thought out round, but it never quite caught on. In this case the 260 came 1st, but after a few years of actual use some room for improvement were noted. In this case it appears the newcomer will likely overtake the original in popularity.

Mostly because the 260 never really took off. If it had and were firmly entrenched I doubt the 6.5 could compete even though it is slightly better.
 
Like all runs on guns and cartridges, a bunch of articles were written. With the paper punching crowd it MAY make a difference, but the average shooter could not produce the difference. Remember when the .260 hit the seen? How about the .338 Federal? Writers generally get some form of consideration from the producers of new items.
Click to expand...

Right. There are a lot of very similar cartridges out there where one is more popular than another and you have to wonder not only why that is, but why folks bothered to produce something so similar. However, such caliber children are the offspring of niche/goal-oriented parents who wanted something special for a particular reason.

New offerings are often billed as fulfilling some apparent gap in performance of predecessors and while they may do it, the 'gap' has often gone unnoticed by the vast majority of shooters.
 
Jmr40 hit on it. The standard twist for the 260 in 9" and for the Creedmoor it is 8" for stabilizing longer bullets. The Creedmoor also has 0.0807" more freebore so the long VLD bullets may be seated further out. It also has a 0.0294" longer neck so bullets with long boattails don't crowd the main powder space. So it is a longer range target shooting cartridge by design. If you are going to shoot deer from 300 yards and less and don't want to spend extra money on long bullets, that may make the 260 may be a better choice.

In QuickLOAD, both cases show the same water overflow capacity. This is likely because, despite being a little shorter at the shoulder, the Creedmoor has straighter sides. But given the extra amount by which you can seat a 142 grain SMK out into the longer Creedmoor throat, the Creedmoor actually ends up with almost 2 grains more powder capacity. Note that the Hodgdon data seats that particular bullet to 2.780" in both cartridges. I'm not sure why. Perhaps it has too little bearing surface in the Creedmoor's neck when you seat it longer, as I did in QuickLOAD. It's going to be with Berger VLD's that you can really take advantage of the longer throat.

The bottom line seems to me to be that if you got a 260 reamer made with the longer throat and used it to chamber an 8" twist barrel blank it would be six of one, half dozen of the other except for the neck length. The main reason I see for the Creedmoor being a separate cartridge from the 260 is so commercial ammo makers (Hornady) can use longer bullets than they can load for the 260 without getting complaints. Indeed, if you can allow for the cost to have a custom reamer made, there is no reason not to make the 6.5-08. It would save you forming effort and, from QuickLOAD's database, would get you an extra grain of water capacity. You just wouldn't have any commercial ammo available at all, and would have to work your own loads up starting from the Creedmoor data.
 
Last edited:
Due to the case design the 6.5 Creedmoor handles the longer bullets with better BC's better than the 260.
Click to expand...

Well it took me awhile to figure out how to do a screen grab but did figure it out .

In the pics below there are two sections depicted in the chamber drawings that I would consider the lead/throat area . I've marked them for reference .

Couple questions ,

Why are there two sections but only one diameter measurement allocated for it ? Is this to mean they are both the same ?

When you check the difference in the total length of that lead area ( both sections together ) for each caliber . The 6.5 Creedmoor appears to have a full 10th of an inch longer lead .100 Is that correct ?? Note that the Creedmoor diameter is .0005 smaller as well .

If so that must be the difference as to why the Creedmoor can handle longer bullets . In that case I think I would go with the 6.5 Creedmoor for my next rifle .

Both pictures/Drawings were taken from SAAMI drawings

260 Remington http://www.saami.org/pubresources/cc_drawings/Rifle/260 Remington.pdf
lYOcLB.jpg


6.5 Creedmoor http://www.saami.org/pubresources/cc_drawings/Rifle/6_5 Creedmoor.pdf
JLFszm.jpg
 
Last edited:
In a bolt action, for long range rig, there is no difference between a .260 and a 6.5CM as the custom barrel makers account for the differences and build an optimized barrel. In a "stock" hunting rifle, using factory ammo, there is no difference. If you handload for both, yes, you can usually do a little better with the 6.5CM than the .260.

A small reason is OAL. With the .260 and 140/142, to fit in factory length magazines we use up a little case capacity that the 6.5CM does not. But we are also seeing a move to 123 and 130 weight bullets in the 6.5CM, so that is not really an issue with those weights. The 6.5CM is certainly easier to maintain accuracy and velocity with in the .308 pattern ARs and that is probably a small reason as well.

There are some manufacturers that have chosen the 6.5CM over the .260 Remington purely to not have the name "Remington" in the catalog or on their barrels. That is likely the biggest reason you are seeing the 6.5CM pull out in front of the .260Rem. If the .260Rem had been named .264 Lightning, it would be twice as popular.

Sometimes gun people hunt for reasons in the specifications when it is really all in the marketing.
 
Does the target care which caliber was used to put a hole in it?
The shooter who is the most familiar with their equipment will always out shoot those who aren't, regardless of other considerations.
 
The 6.5 Creedmoor appears to have a full 10th of an inch longer lead .100 Is that correct ?? Note that the Creedmoor diameter is .0005 smaller as well.... If so that must be the difference as to why the Creedmoor can handle longer bullets . In that case I think I would go with the 6.5 Creedmoor for my next rifle.
Click to expand...

Yes. If you are building on the AR-10 pattern the 6.5 CM is the way to go for long range shooting.

If you are building on a bolt action, probably doesn't matter either way unless you want to use a standard reamer instead of custom.

Jimro
 
To clarify this will be a bolt gun . My 338 Fed upper post was just a drive by statement .

Sorry UN just saw your post . Not sure how I missed it . I had not thought about barrel twist . That again is a good point and another reason to go with the Creedmoor . Although 6.5-08 sounds like a pretty cool round . How much would a reamer like that cost ?

Does the target care which caliber was used to put a hole in it?
Click to expand...

No but the guy scoring your target might :) but really what has been brought up here in this thread seems to show there is actually a big difference in the two cartridges . Shorter case , longer free bore and barrel twist difference are all very important things to consider if you're going to spend a large chunk of cash on what likely should be the best rifle you've ever owned . I do reload so the Creedmoor would seem to have much more flexibility .
 
I think you are missing a few things. One, I did not mention, is that the 6.5CM does have a better choice of factory ammo and that pushes a lot of the high end shooters that way since they do not reload but are provided their ammo.

Also, if you are getting a custom barrel, all the specs related to leade and freebore can be the same for both cartridges.

If you reload, I think the .260Rem holds an advantage. Brass is cheaper and easier to make than the 6.5CM brass.

If a gas gun is in your future, go 6.5CM. If you are building a custom bolt gun that you are choosing the specs on the barrel, does not make a real difference except on brass cost.
 
MarkCO :

Good points but not sure how custom the barrel will be . It will likely be custom ordered but I have not researched it enough to know what all that entails or all the different stages of completion I can get it in and what would be best for me . Rest assured I'll be back on the board asking those questions when the time comes . My local gun store has a 260 Rem with a krieger barrel and fully adjustable stock for about $3500 . It's a bit steep for me and I feel I could do something very custom close to that .
 
You can certainly get a full boat custom for $3500 or less. Action $1000, custom barrel $800, custom stock $800, match trigger $300...$2900.

OTOH, you get get a RPR in 6.5CM for $1200 or so. I have shot 3 of them, and 2 in .308 and I have the .243Win. If I was a precision bolt gun shop, I would be a little concerned. Ruger hit an inside the park homerun. :D

Bartlein will make the barrel pretty much anyway you want, and so will some others that are excellent. Having owned two other custom bolt guns and still owning a custom .260Rem, I will have a hard time buying a custom rifle again unless it is an ultralight for hunting or a wood stocked signature type of heirloom rifle. The RPRs are just too good.
 
A good comparison would be the 6mm Remington vs 243 Winchester. The 243 came out 1st, the 6mm was a slightly better thought out round, but it never quite caught on
Click to expand...

That had to do with a few things:

1. Barrel twist. The .243 could shoot heavier projectiles than the 6mm offerings. The .244 Remington limited out in the 90 grain range whereas the .243 could go up to 100/105 grains. That made the .243 a much more versatile round overall, even if it didn't have the velocity or range that the .244 did. Additionally, when shooters tried to shoot heavier projectiles, the round was stained with the reputation as being an inaccurate round. Hard to overcome that stigma. Remington was slow to make the changes and by the time they did, the .243 was a mainstay. They made some strides when they re-introduced the cartridge as the 6mm Remington, but it has always been second fiddle to the .243 because of how it was born.

2. Marketing. That has a hell of a lot to do with whether or not a round will make it, and Remington was slow to grasp that when they introduced the .244/6mm.
 
To specifically answer the op, the 260 is little more than it's parent case 308 necked to accept 6.5 bullets and go in typical short action rifles. The purpose of the 6.5 Creedmoor is to improve upon the 260's shortcomings.

Several of the above replies address exactly how the 6.5 CM achieves its purpose. Well done gents.

As an aside, the 6.5 CM seems to be enough of an improvement, that its popularity is leaving the 260 in the dust. That means better ammo and brass availability for the Creedmoor.
 
So the Creedmoor is likely the chambering I'll be going with . I have and still am considering just going with the Ruger precision rifle . I agree that they are putting out some great new products . Not sure if it's good or sad but my $370 RAR with $35 Tasco scope has no problem keeping up with my $1k Savage with Vortex scope . The only issues with the Ruger is the sporter barrel does not handle heat well . By the 4th or 5th shot It will start to walk a tad . It's also very light and becomes uncomfortable to shoot after a while . The tasco is only on it because I needed something to put on it to try it out . It shot so well it never came off . In the grand scheme of things the Tasco is really a POS but I rarely shoot the rifle so for now the rifle is usable .
 
Last edited:
Another reason why 6.5C has taken off better than .260 Rem ties right back in with the target/competition reasons listed above.

Remington really didn't think about the growing popularity of "long range" shooting. (In their defense, it was still a fairly unseen movement in the late '90s.) So, when they introduced the cartridge, it was accompanied only by 'hunting' ammunition. And that situation didn't change for at least 10 years.
As the "long range" fad kept growing and growing, shooters kept running into the same four 'hunting' loads from Remington, with hardly anything else available.



And, possibly most importantly, right now, is the fact that even Remington has given up on the cartridge. They stopped chambering .260 Remington two (three?) years ago. Now, the only way to get a Remington in .260 Remington is to buy one of the leftover 'NOS' Model 7s, or to order something through the custom shop.

When even the namesake 'creator' doesn't care about the cartridge any more, what reason is there for the average shooter to take a chance on it?
 
I am also going with the 6.5 Creedmore for my next barrel. It has by far become the #1 caliber in the long range shooting group. There are a few 6MM's there but few and far inbetween. As for top end shooters not loading their own?. I am not aware of any of the top shooters that dont roll their own loads.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top