What's The Point Behind This Stance?

The gun is being fired from what is called the retention position.
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fiddle is correct.

That hand in the air is to stop any grappling while the other hand gives the BG the contents of the gun.

SouthNarc has his own version (as do most trainers.)

The concept is simply to have the off hand both in a guard position and out of the way of the gunfire.

Just how and where you put it is up to you.

Deaf
 
I have learned this in martial arts with many weapons. You hold the weapon close to the body to prevent the assailant who may be too close to extent the weapon from being taken away. The other hand is raised to protect the body or slap away the assailant's attack to give a clear shot to a vital target. This seems like a practical explaination of the picture.
 
Firing from the retention position as well as moving forward and backing up while firing are part of Ohio's weapon qualification course requirements.

I seem to recall doing all that as part of API250, but won't swear to it as it was a long time ago.
 
Kevin Rohrer said:
...I seem to recall doing all that as part of API250, but won't swear to it as it was a long time ago.
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When I did 250 in 2002, we did not do it. But we definitely did in the 350 I recently completed.
 
The position you described is classic defense posturing to fend off the hostile from making a grab for the gun.

If one is going to shoot with one hand, the other hand is placed upon the chest to keep it out of the way so the shooter does not inadvertently shoot himself in the non-shooting hand.
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+1

I perfer to aim with 2 hands though... But if the BG is far enough away I will aim with 2 hands. If he is close, CQC close I do what that picture shows. Also the hand placed up in the air can defend a swing/attack.
 
As has already been eluded to, there are many trainers out there teaching a method similar to what is described in the OP. Most are tied in with some sort of Close Quaters Training, or Contact Distance Managemet; however, the intended use of this technique for the most part is the same.

Playing strictly off Las Vegas odds, most people we encounter are right handed - and the majority of them are untrained boobs. if you hand the typical "untrained boob" a contact weapon (pipe wrench, club, whatever) odds tell us that their opening strike will more than likely be somewhere in the first quadrant (vertical to horizontal on the attackers right hand side) with an overhand, or outside to inside move.

There are a few points of contact on the cranial storage unit that are directly linked to the "off switch". Typcal of these are the jaw, temple and base of the skull. The support-arm elevated to the side of the head with the hand/fingers wrapped around the back of the neck protects these specific points of contact from a blow comming into that quadrant.

Whether or not the defensive scenario "requires" shooting, techniques like this and those that are similar are good tools for the tool box. One of the most critical components in any conflict is to stay on your feet - bad and unexpected things happen on the ground.

As an additional comment, and playing the same Vegas odds, if you are going to move, move sharply to the left. When a blow comes from that side, moving to the right only catches the strike a little later in the swing; moving back does not always compensate for the attackers ability to move forward, or the length of the contact device; moving to the left may short-stroke the blow, or might even possibly move you out of the way completely (again considering the "majority" of people are right-handed untrained boobs - thats why we call it Vegas odds).
 
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Weak side arm raised and extended as if you were going to whip your "cape" over you attacker...with gun on strong side in retention position. Allows defensive and offensive use of weak hand. Works well with a light in the weak hand where it can be used as a weapon as the "cape" comes over the other party.

Here's a link... Hope this clarifies, because it's hard for me to put it into words...
http://www.tacticalgunfan.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=627&Itemid=74
 
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"Erik, see my post 8 to see why I don't think that default would have worked out so well."

I'm was referring to what I believe the the OP described, not the picture shown. The point of vertical and horizontal default stances is to ingrain a reaction calculated to serve most well in most circumstances. And from there, other reactions should be ingrained.
 
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""Count Dracula"? Can you please elaborate on that?"

It is the common term for the horizontal barrier stance that you initially described:

"The shooter is either drawing, or has already drawn, his sidearm. His other arm is held out in front of him parallel to the ground, elbow bent, with the hand flat against the side of his head. I also see knife guys like Michael Janich using this same positioning."

From there, if you're right handed, move your left hand from the right side of your head to the left side to form the vertical barrier.

There are, as mentioned, variations to both.

Best - E
 
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Stepping backward was always a no no unless you were absolutely sure of your footing. Stepping on something or tripping on something in a fight situation is the first sign that you are in deep doo doo.
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That's why balance is one of the most important aspects of martial arts.

I don't claim any great expertise. Most of my knowledge of martial arts comes from dabbling. Most of my knowledge of actually fighting happened in and around places that served alcohol. The only time I was injured by a weapon, it was because of stupidity not malice.
So that's the experience I speak from.

1. underestimating distance: In fencing (which I studied 4 years) and Kendo, I kept noticing that my opponents would often miss. In fencing the thrust or lunge would end up short, sometimes by several inches. In Kendo the same was true of cuts that would have passed in front, if I hadn't had my shinai (bamboo stick) held up.
I often scored points by waiting for those missteps.

2. backing up: As you are aware, there is lots of backing up in martial arts. True, that's on mats or other flat surfaces. But almost all that retrograde movement was developed from actual fighting.
From my experience it could be successfully reapplied to actual fighting.

So there ya go, that's why i wrote what I did. YMMV
 
No, I don't mean that rhetorically. For the past few years I've noticed photos in many of the gun mags of people using this odd stance that I just don't understand. Since I don't know how to post pics, I'll describe it: The shooter is either drawing, or has already drawn, his sidearm. His other arm is held out in front of him parallel to the ground, elbow bent, with the hand flat against the side of his head. I also see knife guys like Michael Janich using this same positioning. Can someone please explain the purpose of this peculiar-looking stance to me, and also: How many of you guys use it yourselves?
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Over the years i came to the conclusion, i don't believe in STANCES in CC or LE. I do believe in stances at the beginners stage, or for sport/target shooting. Once you reach the stage of advance shooting, stance becomes irrelevant.

Target shooting is a great for practicing your MECHANICS, once you master the MECHANICS ( Grip Aim Sight and Trigger pull)... how you stand doesn't matter. Look at most Real Life shootings Videos, and see if anyone is taking a stance, probably not, because most of the time your moving, retreating or going for cover/concealment. If your moving your mechanics still need to be applied.. GAST.

The video of Tom Cruise is a Hip Shot many LE qualifications require, which is great since most shootings are up close and spontaneous. Most Departments do the Target thing, behind the barrel, kneeling, weak hand and stuff, and go home... they qualify. I think ALL should go through so type of Tactical/combat close quarters training.

I like to carry my holster on my hip with the holster in a straight up Vertical position, NO slant forwards or holsters sitting on the rear of the hip. I line up my weapon's trigger with the seam on my pants leg as a guide, so now if i had to draw my weapon it would come straight up, giving me the option to take the shot from any where on the way up, or from the arm pit, as seen in the photo, or i can extend my weapon from the arm pit to one or two handed grip.

In tactical training there are Positions, not stances. if your firing your weapon as you advance towards your target, you need to align your body, or, if your moving sideways, or retreating while firing. In a real life shooting scenario your better NOT take a stance, you better MOVE, and then do everything else.

I'm not one to worry about STANCE, MOVE... Pull your weapon and shoot, or cover your target as quickly as possible.

Except for beginners or Range Target shooting
 
GUNSITE said:
...i don't believe in STANCES in CC or LE. I do believe in stances at the beginners stage, or for sport/target shooting. Once you reach the stage of advance shooting, stance becomes irrelevant.
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Yes and no. As one progresses in his development of shooting and tactical skills, "stance" comes to take on a different meaning.

Yes, in practical fighting with a gun, the notion of stance in the rigid sense (feet here, hands held just so, etc.) starts to lose its meaning. But we are still concerned with providing ourselves with a suitable shooting platform to help us maintain our balance, help us manage recoil and deliver quick, accurate shots, move fluidly, transition among multiple targets, address threats from multiple directions.

And thus "stance" comes to take on a new meaning -- one involving movement. When we begin to practice skills like moving and shooting and shooting while moving, we must learn to the ways to move our feet and shift our balance to maintain a strong and stable shooting platform. When we practice skills like moving to cover and shooting from cover, we must learn the ways to move to preserve balance and how to position our feet and bodies to make the best use of cover, exposing ourselves as little as possible. And when we practice moving in the shoot house or the outside simulator, we must learn to maintain balance and make the most effective use of concealment.

So when it comes to practical weaponscraft, stance means something different from what it means standing still shooting at static targets. But it still means something.
 
It's CQB where you push BG away and recoil your arm back into defence position. As you draw and fire from point position.

A couple of things for this
* Push away BG to create a bit of room for quick draw and fire
* Pull arm back so its not grabbed
* Keeps you from shooting a hole/injury in your pushing arm
 
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When trying to train an individual to keep their hands up it helps to give them something to index the hand against. With respect to a stance where the knife is held in the lead hand (right for most people) you want to keep the left hand up guarding your head.

In the video posted the position of the left hand seems somewhat exaggerated but again, this may be a method he uses to insure the student has something (their head) to index the left hand against and reinforce the importance of keeping the hand up.

I'm also wondering in the shooting video if there is some intention to protect the hearing in the left ear. Just a matter of speculation on my part.
 
2edgesword said:
...I'm also wondering in the shooting video if there is some intention to protect the hearing in the left ear. Just a matter of speculation on my part.
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Nah. It really is to (1) protect the head from a blow; and (2) get the support hand away from the muzzle.

At Gunsite, we brought the support hand to the side of our head. In Louis Awerbuck's class, we warded off and then brought the support hand in flat to our chests (and that's what Tom Cruise did in the clip from Collateral).

When engaging from the retention position, there are a number of things that might be done with the support hand. But the important thing is to keep it away from the muzzle of the gun.
 
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