What's the difference-.38 vs .38 special?

The marketing term "Hi-Speed" was applied to other cartridges as well. The .44-40, for instance, was at one time produced in such a loading and was (I assume) intended to rifles. I don't have any reference material at hand, so I'm not sure if the .38-40 and .32-20 were also produced in a hi-speed loading or not. This is all pre-war stuff, of course.

Along the same lines, Colt listed the .38-44 among the cartridges that could be used in their Police Positive Special revolver but S&W did not list it for the K-frame M&P revolver in the pre-war days. The large frame .38 revolvers from S&W were the .38-44 Heavy Duty and Outdoorsman.
 
"I don't have any reference material at hand, so I'm not sure if the .38-40 and .32-20 were also produced in a hi-speed loading or not."

.32-20

.38-40

.44-40

.45-70

Possibly other Winchester black powder cartridges that made the transition to smokeless, as well.

The loadings were discontinued because, the same as today, idiots wouldn't read the warnings on the box and were loading them into Model 1873 rifles or early Model 1873 Colt revolvers.

The rifles tended to lose their side plates, and the revolvers tended to either stretch the hell out of the frame, or crack the cylinder.

HERE we go! A vintage Winchester .32-20 box with the warnings clearly printed in red!

Winchester High Velocity .32-20

Cartridges so manufactured by Winchester (Note that the factory term was High Velocity, Hi-Speed was a Remington mark) were headstamped WHV
 
Well, now, the .45-70 is a new one for high speed, although I recall one writer in an old Gun Digest from about 50 years ago commenting on how there's weren't as many loads around for the .45-70 like there used to be. But judging from the listings in old publications like the Gun Digest, there was hardly any variety to begin with among the different calibers. That may not be such a bad thing at that. The .38 Special did come in two or three different loads, including a "metal piercing" round, as mentioned already, but there didn't seem to be much of a selection of bullets like there is now.
 
Here you go.

An example of a pretty rare box of Winchester High Velocity .45-70s.

radD532621805.jpg



It didn't have the explicit warning that later boxes like the .32-20 I showed above had.

I have in my personal collection a .45-70 shell headstamped indicating that it is part of this line up. I can't remember the exact head stamp specifics right now, but it's definitely one of the cartridges adapted specifically for the 1886 Winchester and not for use in earlier guns like the Trapdoor.
 
Good photo. It makes it sound like essentially the same as a 300-grain .45-70 you can buy today. I notice it says "low pressure" and "adapted" but does that mean they shouldn't be used in Springfield single shots? Just asking; I don't have one anymore. I also notice it says not to reload them. And are they jacketed bullets?
 
Hum...

You know, that box may predate the introduction of the higher pressure rounds. The high velocity may mean the lighter bullet.

I'm not 100% sure when Winchester was using that box design, but I think it was prior to about 1905.

I'm going to have to do a little more digging.

And, I would think that they would be lead bullets. Jacketed bullets were really just being introduced, and were primarily being used for the new smokeless powder cartridges. Jacketed bullets started to back fill into the old black powder cartridges later, I think.

As for the reloading statement, I think that was a pretty common position held by many of the manufacturers at this time. They wanted to sell loaded ammunition, not components.
 
I hate to necromance an old thread, but I do have one question which may or may not matter when it comes to newer handguns...if the barrel of a handgun is roll marked S&W .38 CAL, is the manufacturer stating in another way that the handgun is chambered for the 38 Special round?:confused:
 
if the barrel of a handgun is roll marked S&W .38 CAL, is the manufacturer stating in another way that the handgun is chambered for the 38 Special round?
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How old is the gun? Unless it's pretty new, I would expect it to be .38 S&W and not .38 Special.
 
Some .38 S&W revolvers sold to the British (actually given to the British in leu of repayment of funds advanced to S&W for development of an S&W SMG the British had contracted for but which was a failure and not acceptable) used .38 Special barrels but a .38 S&W cylinder.
The revolvers had been manufactured as .38 Specials in large runs for expected police contracts that never materialized due to severe budget cuts by most police departments in the late thirties.
To meet the British military's needs they pulled these pistols out of storage and replaced the cylinders with .38 S&W cylinders so the British .380/200 cartridge could be used. By then the British .380 revolver cartridge had been reconfigured for use with a 170 grain jacketed bullet.

It was found that the tighter bore of the .38 Special barrel gave better accuracy with the British cartridge than the slightly larger diameter bore of the Webley and Enfield revolvers.
I expect this was because the newer lighter jacketed bullet did not bump up as well as the heavier lead bullets had done.

Anyway this is why some .380/200 S&W revolvers have barrels marked as .38 Special. Also if rechambered for the .38 Special these would have the proper barrel marking for that cartridge but would produce fired cases with the distinctive bulging of the case near the base.
 
[.38 S&W] will not fit in many guns chambered for the .38 S&W Special.
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I had always assumed this to be the case as well. I found myself with too much time on my hands one winter afternoon and decided to check it out. At that time I owned 19 revolvers in either .38 Special or .357 Magnum and exactly one (an S&W M32-1) in .38 S&W. As a result, I had a couple boxes of Remington .38 S&W ammo hanging around. I took a few of the .38 S&W factory rounds and checked each of my .38/.357 revolvers to see if they would chamber. Much to my surprise, every one of the factory rounds I checked easily dropped into every chamber of all the .38/.357 guns.

FWIW, I also handload the .38 S&W and simply use regular .38 (i.e., .358" lead) caliber bullets, rather than hunting down the "correct" .360 diameter. The bullet is a bit of a sloppy fit in the case until you roll crimp them, but accuracy is perfectly acceptable for a little snubby like the Model 32 (aka Terrier).
 
"This is rollmarked on a 2012 production S&W..."

Then it is .38 Special, not .38 S&W.

S&W hasn't chambered any guns for that cartridge in quite a few years.
 
Much to my surprise, every one of the factory rounds I checked easily dropped into every chamber of all the .38/.357 guns.
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A relic Model 37 with alloy cylinder that I put back in firing condition would accept the .38 S&W in two chambers but not in the other three.
All chambers had been cleaned throughly.
The two chambers that accepted the .38 S&W appeared to have bulged a bit, which was a not uncommon problem with the early alloy cylinders. They had recalled the alloy cylinder guns and replaced with a steel cylinder, which makes those with the alloy cylinder a bit more collectable.

If you have a .38 special or .357 magnum that will accept the .38 S&W you either have undersized .38 S&W cases or swollen or otherwise slightly oversized chambers.

PS
.38 S&W neck dimension is .3855 with base .3865.
.38 Special neck is .379, base is .379.
 
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I know that it is a 38 Special, and I know that it's also +P rated, but I am at a loss as to why S&W won't roll mark all 38 Special revolvers the same? Sticking with S&W 38 Special +P on all their revolvers that are chambered only for 38 would make life so much easier for the many who question such things. I understand that all new production 38's are all +P rated, but not all revolvers will display the +P rating, necessitating the uninitiated to have to ask, is my new S&W +P rated. Not too long ago, while at a gun show, a customer at a booth inquired about why the new 360J was not +P rated, and the brain surgeon at the booth stated unquivocally that if it didn't have the +P rating "stamped" on the gun, it's not +P rated.
 
If you have a .38 special or .357 magnum that will accept the .38 S&W you either have undersized .38 S&W cases or swollen or otherwise slightly oversized chambers.
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Perhaps the former (I only checked using a handful of Remington factory cartridges from the same box), but I seriously doubt the latter (every chamber on all 19 guns, all of which are either S&Ws or Colts?).
 
Alnamvet68 said:
I know that it is a 38 Special, and I know that it's also +P rated, but I am at a loss as to why S&W won't roll mark all 38 Special revolvers the same?
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So why'd ya ask what ya did? :)

Just a guess, but they probably don't have room to stamp everything on all their barrels.
 
Alnamvet68 said:
I understand that all new production 38's are all +P rated
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That's a dangerous bit if misinformation there. Where did you learn it?

Advice #10 in my "10 Advices for Novice Handloaders" is this one:

Verify for yourself everything you learn. Believe only half of what you see and one quarter of what you hear. That goes double for everything you find on the internet from casual sources.

Especially that nimrod at Bass Pro

Lost Sheep
 
To the original poster: Thanks for asking our advice. I am surprised that this thread has gone on so long for a relatively simple question. But the fact is that anyone who invents a cartridge gets to name it whatever they want whether it makes sense or not. That creates a LOT of potential for confusion.

My advice: Go to a REAL gun store and ask them to look at the gun (It would be polite to leave it in the gun case, put it on the counter and talk to them first). Tell them your story and let them check the gun to verify the proper ammunition. If you don't have a gun case, leave it in the car and talk to the counterman.

Before you leave, buy two boxes of their ammo. Their advice is worth it. Or one box and a gun case.

Or, take the gun to a gunsmith. You may get a free verification of the right ammo or for about $25 he might give the gun a thorough examination for safety and shootability (chamber-barrel alignment, cylinder lockup, stuff like that).

Or you could open the crane, read us all the numbers stamped in there (model number, principally) and we could know from the model number. Photographs would help.

But the Gunsmith will be the most authoritative source and has a vested interest in giving you correct information and will tell you that he doesn't know if he doesn't. He has reputation on the line and no ulterior motives.

Good luck,

Lost Sheep
 
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