Thanks for the info. Is the purpose of the jp enhanced reliability spring kit to make the mil-spec trigger lighter? I kind of like heavier triggers.
What's the appeal of fancy triggers?
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I like triggers around 4-4.5lbs. My hands are very strong as a result of a lifetime of working with my hands. 4lbs feels very light to me. I prefer 2-stage triggers, I like a little take up. I do have some single stage triggers, I like them too, just like 2-stage more.
I have gieselle, larue, and POF triggers as far as “fancy” goes. My preference of those are the Gieselle.
I also have tried many “milspec’ish” and “enhanced milspec” triggers; and CMMG is the best standard-type trigger hands down. I would try CMMG if you prefer heavier triggers.
I have gieselle, larue, and POF triggers as far as “fancy” goes. My preference of those are the Gieselle.
I also have tried many “milspec’ish” and “enhanced milspec” triggers; and CMMG is the best standard-type trigger hands down. I would try CMMG if you prefer heavier triggers.
Swifty Morgan
New member
I'm no expert, but to me, the LaRues seem about the same as mil-spec, only nicer. I can't imagine one going off unexpectedly.
For accuracy, my Gucci trigger is really something. Last time I shot 6.5 Creedmoor, I managed to get 22 shots off before it started raining. All sub-MOA at 100 yards. The last two 5-shot groups were below 05 MOA. A good trigger makes it easy.
Mil-spec works to the effective range of the weapon. Don't confuse the shooters ability to apply the fundamentals with equipment to make the application easier.
Combat consists of Maneuver and Fires. The vast majority of Combat is maneuver. Mil-Spec triggers are built for this reality. Fancy triggers are built for the range to put holes in paper on a Sunday Afternoon, Mil-Spec triggers are built for carry and use in combat.
The shooters ability to consistently apply the fundamentals is what is important not the band-aid's used to cover up poor technique.
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Consistency of the shooter is very important.
Consistency of equipment is also important.
A master with crappy tools will most likely outperform the novice, with all other things being equal. But, I don’t remember any masters of any discipline intentionally choosing crappy equipment.
In my opinion based on experience is that “milspec” is the lowest acceptable standard that the lowest bidder attempts to achieve. There’s lots of items and materials that outlast and outperform milspec. Not that milspec is junk, it’s a good starting point.
That said, I wouldn’t want to run around the terrain with a 1-3lb trigger
Consistency of equipment is also important.
A master with crappy tools will most likely outperform the novice, with all other things being equal. But, I don’t remember any masters of any discipline intentionally choosing crappy equipment.
In my opinion based on experience is that “milspec” is the lowest acceptable standard that the lowest bidder attempts to achieve. There’s lots of items and materials that outlast and outperform milspec. Not that milspec is junk, it’s a good starting point.
That said, I wouldn’t want to run around the terrain with a 1-3lb trigger
georgehwbush
New member
(A good trigger makes it easy.) umm i would say easier, you can have the best trigger in the world, and a weapon/ammo combo that wont stack under moa no matter what you do. just saying all things work together. there is no magic bullet. there are better bullets and not so good ones... there is not magic trigger, there are better triggers and not so good ones... there are no magic shooters, there are better ones, and there are not so good ones.... you get the point.
Not sure what you call "fancy". But once you get used to a trigger at XX pull weight you don't want to go back to a heavier one. I understand that too light can be troublesome, but 2.5-3 lbs isn't too light IMO. For me that is a good compromise trigger pull weight. After getting used to something around 3 lbs I just don't want a 5-6 lb trigger.
I have multiple rifles. AR's and various bolt rifles as well as both bolt and semi-auto 22's. I find it important to have the trigger pull weights close to the same.
If not it really messes me up when going from a 3 lb trigger on one rifle to a 6 lb trigger on another.
I have aftermarket triggers in some, some have been worked on by a gunsmith. None cost me more than $130 and most were under $100.
For me it was money well spent.
I have multiple rifles. AR's and various bolt rifles as well as both bolt and semi-auto 22's. I find it important to have the trigger pull weights close to the same.
If not it really messes me up when going from a 3 lb trigger on one rifle to a 6 lb trigger on another.
I have aftermarket triggers in some, some have been worked on by a gunsmith. None cost me more than $130 and most were under $100.
For me it was money well spent.
Mil-spec is designed to produce a weapon that can be safely jostled, jolted, and dropped while maneuvering while delivering consistency of operation within tolerances. It is series of specifications that describe the physical and operational characteristics required of each part.
It does not represent the minimum standard; just the standard operational and physical characteristics including tolerances.
In the Army, our unit had armorers who could modify equipment including triggers. Most guys never used it and shot what the Army issued to us.
Despite all efforts at quality control outliers do slip by. Not every part the Army takes in is measured to ensure milspec compliance as it is just not practical to do so. Instead, parts are randomly inspected and statistical math fills in the gaps. Most Regular Army Soldiers outside of Infantry units would not know the difference between an out of spec trigger in need of repair and one that is in spec.
georgehwbush
New member
(It does not represent the minimum standard) so if a manufacturer wanted to go above and beyond a milspec standard, the military would reject it because it "exceeded" milspec ? of course not. so it is a minimum standard.
Nope. Not the correct concept because the answer is YES, if it falls outside of milspec it will be rejected. In the case of a trigger, one that is too light is dangerous to maneuver with and one that is too heavy degrades the ability to apply fires.
georgehbush my reply was to RickyRick because he stated clearly his opinion which is he is entitled too. Milspec itself is not an opinion but very well defined in thousands upon thousands of pages of Military documentation. Even ink the Military uses has a milspec, lol.
https://www.durable-tech.com/marking/industrial-inks
RickyRick said:
What I posted is not my opinion. It is the definition of MILSPEC. Everything in the service that goes thru procurement has a milspec.
Everything. Most milspec is a range of tolerances. Yes, there is a minimum tolerance and a maximum tolerance.
ALL of that is NOTHING but STANDARD. Not the minimum or maximum standards...just STANDARD to meet the physical and operational characteristics the Army requires of that equipment.
In the case of a trigger, it meets the physical and operational characteristics required to effectively conduct Fire and Maneuver.
What you are turning it into is a like saying A soldier who is 17 years old or one that is 35 is not a soldier because they are at the minimum and maximum standard to be a soldier.
A 17 year old is not a "minimum" soldier anymore so than a 35 year old is a "maximum" soldier. Both simply meet THE STANDARD to be a soldier.
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Swifty Morgan
New member
Exactly, except I wouldn't count on a master with really crappy tools accomplishing much of anything. Give the best shot on Earth a 1-MOA AR-15, and I, a low-level amateur, will mop the floor with him at 100 yards, every day, all day.
I hope nobody is claiming a mil-spec trigger is as good for precision shooting as a high-end trigger, because it isn't. Mil-spec triggers and precision triggers are different tools for doing different jobs. They are not interchangeable. If they were, top target shooters would all use mil-spec triggers, because they are cheap. Those guys aren't morons.
There will always be people who dump on good equipment and say it's not necessary to have good stuff because good old granddad could give a mosquito a vasectomy with a musket at a thousand yards. That's not true. It is necessary if you want the best results. You build your rifle for its chosen purpose. Serious precision shooters buy expensive triggers, and it's not because they are "Band Aids."
Handicapping yourself with inappropriate tools is not a sign of superior competence.
I showed up at a precision rifle class with a mil-spec trigger, a varmint scope in MOA, and a gas gun because I had no idea what I was doing. I got away with it because I have a good trigger pull and I managed to overcome the inherent difficulty of shooting gas guns well enough to hit steel, but my instructor was surprised and commented on it. At the very least, everyone else had an RPR, and there were plenty of fancier rigs.
He recommended more suitable equipment, and that's what I went out and got. I passed the course, but I would have done better with the right tools.
Not to toot my own horn, but I don't think a person who can shoot sub-0.5-MOA 5-shot groups repeatedly from a prone position with factory ammo is not paying attention to fundamentals, regardless of what kind of trigger he has. It's not just the gun. I practiced and learned. Give my middle-of-the-road precision gun to someone who hasn't trained, and he will shoot bigger groups.
georgehwbush
New member
davidsog; so i stand corrected.
i didn't know that the mil-spec for accuracy on an m4 carbine had a limit, i.e. has to shoot within this range... 5-moa minimum... what 2-moa maximum ??? at what point is it too accurate?
not trying to be a dick, it's just that some mil-spec specifications are just exactly that "minimum standards". has to meet or exceed blah blah blah... <shrugs.>
i didn't know that the mil-spec for accuracy on an m4 carbine had a limit, i.e. has to shoot within this range... 5-moa minimum... what 2-moa maximum ??? at what point is it too accurate?
not trying to be a dick, it's just that some mil-spec specifications are just exactly that "minimum standards". has to meet or exceed blah blah blah... <shrugs.>
The way manufacturing works, its a rare (and expensive) part that gets 100% inspected.
Depending on processes,tooling,and alot of variables,First parts will be thoroughly inspected,but then it may be 1 in 10 or 50 or whatever the engineers want. Processes are developed to be stable and relatively predictable.
Inspection is mostly about monitoring process.
FWIW,while I think a Rock River National Match trigger for reliable value,
I think competition rules require a certain trigger pull . I doubt a 2 lb pull would be allowed to compete.
I would guess the Rock River is about a 3 lb first stage and a 4 1/2 lb second stage. With clean,crisp movement,that can be quite shootable.
I speculate a 2 1/2 lb trigger is not the best for exhausted troops clamoring onto a helicopter from a hot LZ .
There are folks here far better shots than I am, and some who can fully use a very light trigger ,but for many shooters a gnat fart trigger is used to cover up for a lack of trigger control and is a tool to develop bad habits.
Its a means to jerk the trigger that is less disturbing to the rifle.
With a clean break and a lack of overtravel, a good marksman can shoot quite well with a 4 to 6 lb trigger.
I'll agree a gritty,spongy,inconsistent trigger is an obstacle to even learning trigger control.
But being a trigger prima donna might be relying on a crutch.
Depending on processes,tooling,and alot of variables,First parts will be thoroughly inspected,but then it may be 1 in 10 or 50 or whatever the engineers want. Processes are developed to be stable and relatively predictable.
Inspection is mostly about monitoring process.
FWIW,while I think a Rock River National Match trigger for reliable value,
I think competition rules require a certain trigger pull . I doubt a 2 lb pull would be allowed to compete.
I would guess the Rock River is about a 3 lb first stage and a 4 1/2 lb second stage. With clean,crisp movement,that can be quite shootable.
I speculate a 2 1/2 lb trigger is not the best for exhausted troops clamoring onto a helicopter from a hot LZ .
There are folks here far better shots than I am, and some who can fully use a very light trigger ,but for many shooters a gnat fart trigger is used to cover up for a lack of trigger control and is a tool to develop bad habits.
Its a means to jerk the trigger that is less disturbing to the rifle.
With a clean break and a lack of overtravel, a good marksman can shoot quite well with a 4 to 6 lb trigger.
I'll agree a gritty,spongy,inconsistent trigger is an obstacle to even learning trigger control.
But being a trigger prima donna might be relying on a crutch.
HiBC,
Your points are well taken. I’m a self confessed trigger snob. This doesn’t mean I love light for the sake of light or crisp for the safe of crisp triggers.
I find that in general triggers are becoming lighter and worse over time. The Glock 3.5 vs 5.0 connector is a good example. The 3.5 connector is not lighter….it is a cam shape change that trades light for creep.
I find, for example, that my carry guns feel best at 4-6lbs with a DA type or slightly creepy pull.
I also find I want a light, fairly crisp trigger (2.5lb Timney) on my 0-600yd deer rifle, but am fine with a 3.5lb AR15 trigger with a bit of creep.(Rise Armament). My DG rifle is set to 3-3.5lbs, but could be 5lbs due to distance of engagement!
I also find crispness and weight can affect each other. This causes a balance point that may be lighter or heavier than ideal, but the balance means more than the weight.
Your points are well taken. I’m a self confessed trigger snob. This doesn’t mean I love light for the sake of light or crisp for the safe of crisp triggers.
I find that in general triggers are becoming lighter and worse over time. The Glock 3.5 vs 5.0 connector is a good example. The 3.5 connector is not lighter….it is a cam shape change that trades light for creep.
I find, for example, that my carry guns feel best at 4-6lbs with a DA type or slightly creepy pull.
I also find I want a light, fairly crisp trigger (2.5lb Timney) on my 0-600yd deer rifle, but am fine with a 3.5lb AR15 trigger with a bit of creep.(Rise Armament). My DG rifle is set to 3-3.5lbs, but could be 5lbs due to distance of engagement!
I also find crispness and weight can affect each other. This causes a balance point that may be lighter or heavier than ideal, but the balance means more than the weight.
stagpanther
New member
News Flash--I don't care what people think about my choice in triggers.
That is all.
That is all.
Your unit was quite different than the ones I served in. NO Armorer was allowed to do anything to the trigger, other than pull it.
I would go so far as to say most Regular Army soldiers in Infantry units wouldn't know an out of spec trigger, either. Users only know if it feels "too heavy" or "too light" and "in spec" to most of them means the gun fires when the trigger is pulled.
I doubt there is a spec for "too accurate". I know there is one for not accurate enough, and I also know that's its a rare day when the guns are actually tested to see if they meet it, or not.
Not sure what it is for the M4, BUT I can tell you the "Standard for Overseas Shipment" accuracy spec for the M16/M16A1 rifles.
8 MOA
IF an M16 wouldn't shoot tighter than that, it was not authorized for overseas shipment, and was retained in the states for training use.
The GI spec trigger has a range of pull weights (not hunting for the right manual at this time) and anywhere between the upper and lower limits was serviceable, and issued.
Exactly. If you want a rifle for competition then build a rifle for competition.
Yep, outside a very few select places in the Army that is the reality. All I was saying was even with the option, most guys just shot the weapon as issued.
The maximum would be Zero MOA error as in no error introduced due to the weapon. That would be a very difficult one to exceed.....
But don't put it past the Government to reject it if a miracle of science occurs and one did exceed it.