What's Stopping You From Buying a Silencer?

[Wyosmith]

Well Theo, I understand your points very well, but I think you are reasoning backwards in your line of logic.

You say "most people are willing to pay top dollar", but the very existence of the question that started this thread is proof that is not so.
Most people (like 99.5%) are NOT willing to pay top dollar or they would be doing so.

I have interacted with many thousands of shooters in the USA and as of this minute I can think of exactly 7 that own suppressors.

You say “Due to the fact that people are already paying $200, waiting all that time, and probably won't ever be able to sell it, there's just not as much of a demand for cheaper, lower quality suppressors.”

The tax of $200 is a given (as of this writing) and that is an issue that needs to be considered in the overall price to be sure. BUT… many shooters would risk that $200 and maybe another $300 for the can if that was all they were risking.

The idea that they (that would be all of us reading this) don’t want “a cheaper lower quality suppressor” is not a valid point in that there is no such thing.

“Lower quality” is not an issue as much as shorter service life. I am not saying you should make junk, (just the opposit) but I am saying that most folks including myself will NOT spend money on a can that will outlast 20 M-16 barrels used full auto. I am not that rich so that much service life is of no value to me or 99% of the shooters in this country.

I think you’re backwards in that if the price was reasonable for such a can, I am sure the market would shock you.

There was a time when it was said "we don't see a need for high gas mileage."
There was a time when it was said “We have no need to fly"
There was a time when it was said "folks would never buy a horseless carriage. Horses have been good for 50000 years"

Such is the shortsightedness of man.

You can't say that people would not buy what you refuse to make of even consider.
Consideration and asking for public opinion may be a better way to proceed than to tell the public what they will buy (public,......that's me---- and all that are reading this)

Remember this Theo
You started this post and asked the question.
Now you are arguing against the answers.

Are you 100% SURE no one will buy a car that gets high mileage? Or a good inexpensive suppressor?

If so, what makes you sure?

Please consider the line of logic from the other direction.

I am sure (as a successful ex-CEO) that you will find I am right, and you will do a lot better in your profits.

I am uninvested. As I said, I have no real interest in a suppressor. I post these replies only for your benefit.
It costs me nothing if you make millions or if you go broke.

You asked the question. All replies were in response to you. No one else.
A wise man seeks many counsels.
May God bless you with wisdom.

 

[Theohazard]

But there are already companies making cheap silencers. And those companies aren't anywhere near as successful as the companies making top-quality, expensive silencers. Where are all those people who you say would jump on the opportunity to buy those silencers? Instead, silencers from the high-end companies are selling very well. The most innovative silencer company out there is Silencerco, and they just made Forbes' list of top 500 fastest-growing companies.

You say "most people are willing to pay top dollar", but the very existence of the question that started this thread is proof that is not so.
Most people (like 99.5%) are NOT willing to pay top dollar or they would be doing so.

OK, let me add to that statement: "Most people who are willing to jump through all the BATFE hoops, wait almost a year, and buy a silencer that they'll never be able to sell are willing to pay top dollar." I've talked to thousands of customers about silencers, and FAR more people are put off by the complicated and lengthy registration process and tax than they are by the cost of the silencer itself.

I am sure (as a successful ex-CEO) that you will find I am right, and you will do a lot better in your profits.

I'm not a manufacturer, I'm just a retailer. We sell what our customers want at the best prices possible and we still don't make as much of a profit on silencers as we do on guns.

If your business model for cornering the market on cheap suppressors was a good one, I would think someone would have done it by now. As much as silencers have increased in popularity in the last decade or so, I find it very difficult to believe that no one has managed to fully capitalize on this market.

 

[Theohazard]

Wyosmith:

Here's a perfect example of how silencer purchasers want the latest and best stuff and are willing to pay more for it: We recently found ourselves with an overstock of previous-generation silencers. These were good products from top-tier companies but they were a few years old, and in the meantime slightly better products had come out. And as a result we couldn't sell them, not even when we offered them at a large discount.

We ended up selling these silencers at or below cost; selling good .22 silencers at $150 - $300 dollars, good pistol silencers at $300 - $400 dollars, and good rifle silencers at $500 to $700. And we still had a heck of a time selling them! People wanted the newest and best stuff and were willing to pay more for it; for every bottom-dollar silencer we sold, we sold ten top-dollar ones.

 

[Wyosmith]

All your points are taken Theo.
As you are a retailer I see the focus of your original question better now.
Your quote;
“ What's stopping so many people from buying a silencer?”

But you also just validated my points (Again, for about the 5th time)
Go back and re-read my posts! Read them carefully.
The manufacturers are over charging!
That’s what I have been saying all along.

Now you say you can't even sell some of the older GOOD suppressors at cost or below cost easily. Again --- you paid too much.

Go back and re-read all my posts and you'll see the focus of my posts have been and continues to be the FACT that the cans are over priced by the manufacturers.
And one more time I point out that I and several others here are only answering YOUR question.

“Which brings me to this question: What's stopping so many people from buying a silencer?”
It is YOUR post and YOUR question.

Are you trying to say we can’t give you an honest answer?
Are we not entitled to answer?
No one here that’s saying they cost too much is being abrasive. No one is attacking you.
They are simply giving you an honest answer to your question.

 

[Theohazard]

Now you say you can't even sell some of the older GOOD suppressors at cost or below cost easily. Again --- you paid too much.

Then why were we able to sell the newer, higher-priced ones so much more easily? Our main mistake was buying to many suppressors at one time and ending up with an over stock on certain ones. You said that if companies could get their silencers down to a certain price they would skyrocket in popularity. Well, we sold some older silencers at the prices you mentioned, and they were still VERY hard to sell.

Are you trying to say we can’t give you an honest answer?
Are we not entitled to answer?
No one here that’s saying they cost too much is being abrasive. No one is attacking you.
They are simply giving you an honest answer to your question.

I think you're misunderstanding me. I agree that prices are too high. I agree that if the NFA were repealed silencer prices would plummet and ownership would skyrocket. I agree that the high prices come mostly from the manufacturers end. But I disagree with your assertion that the prices are too high simply because the manufacturers have joined together to keep them artificially high.

Go back and re-read all my posts and you'll see the focus of my posts have been and continues to be the FACT that the cans are over priced by the manufacturers.

I'm still amazed that for someone who doesn't understand silencers or the suppressor business, you continue to present this as absolute fact. Yes, they're priced too high for many people. Yes, they would be much more popular if they were a lot cheaper. But so far NO company has been able to get their silencers cheap enough to appeal to enough of those people. None.

I'm not saying that silencers aren't priced too high, I'm simply arguing the REASONS for it. And for someone who understands so little of silencers or the silencer business, you seem awfully convinced that you know those reasons better than I do.

I'll ask you again: As popular as silencers have become recently, why hasn't any company come forward yet and capitalized on your proposed business model of offering super-cheap silencers to all those people who are put off by the current high prices? The answer is simple: They just can't get them low enough to appeal to those people and still survive as a company.

 

[Wyosmith]

Your quote.---
"But I disagree with your assertion that the prices are too high simply because the manufacturers have joined together to keep them artificially high."

You are arguing out of nothing but emotion now.
It’s not "my assertion"
I never said that
I never even thought that.
I never wrote anything like that.
You wrote that.

I do understand economics pretty well. Greed is inherent to the quest of money.
No conspiracy is needed. If you can sell what you make for 1000 and it's truly only worth 100 that just means there are foolish people out there. What the market will bear is what levels the price on any given class of product.

When the price gets too high the majority of buyers do not buy, leaving only the small percentage to support the whole of the industry. That's exactly where the suppressor industry is today.

YOU ASKED THE FIRST QUESTION Theo!
You seem to keep missing that point.

It takes a person of unusually high integrity to step out and make a product for an honest price when it's easy to charge more. Such people do exist, but they are rare.

Apparently there are NONE of them in the US suppressor industry, who are in a position to make the decision to make cans at an affordable price and thereby own the market.

Read that last line again Theo.

It is the answer to your question---- “I'll ask you again: As popular as silencers have become recently, why hasn't any company come forward yet and capitalized on your proposed business model of offering super-cheap silencers to all those people who are put off by the current high prices? The answer is simple: They just can't get them low enough to appeal to those people and still survive as a company.”

It’s actually quite simple
Again go back and re-read all my answers in this thread. All of your points have been answered quite well already.

You say “you seem awfully convinced that you know those reasons better than I do.”
Yes Theo, I do believe I know those reasons. I may be wrong, but you have not successfully answered even one of my counterpoints so far.

I do see that you failed to list the exact taxes and burdened that cause the hassle to be worth so much extra money to EACH customer and the exact laws (copy and paste them pleas) that MAKES the manufacturer charge so much. I have worked with high order explosives in the past and those laws exist for them. As I said, it took us about 3 hours a week (60 hour week I might add) to jump through those hoops, but I can tell you we didn’t have to charge each and every drill hold an extra chunk of money to do out job. It was just part of the job.

Theo, you seem to be making this a personal debate between you and I, and frankly, I don’t think it’s something I need to do or want to do. I don’t have a dog in the fight. I don’t own a can. I don’t think I ever will. I know I never will at the prioces that are currently being charged and I don’t care if anyone else spends their money on cans, beer, football, golf and anything else.

It was YOUR QUESTION.
These are MY answers.

I seem to read a LOT of others that have posted here that agree with me too. Are you mad at them for having an opinion?

Your quote again;
“you seem awfully convinced that you know those reasons better than I do.”
I leave this to you and the other that read here with this last statement.
If you know all about the suppressors and ALL about the marketing of them, why did you ask the question in the first place?
I am going to leave now. I wish you a good business and a good life, but this is not going anywhere that is going to help anyone so I’ll leave you and the other gentlemen to beat this horse as and when you will.

 

[Theohazard]

Relax, my friend. I'm not emotional at all, I'm simply engaging in a discussion with you.

I asked the question. I got a lot of good answers.

I agree with almost all of them; I agree prices are high for what you're getting. I agree that all the costs involved are often prohibitive. I simply disagree with your assertion that a company could come in and corner the market by offering super-cheap suppressors.

When the price gets too high the majority of buyers do not buy, leaving only the small percentage to support the whole of the industry. That's exactly where the suppressor industry is today.

YOU ASKED THE FIRST QUESTION Theo!
You seem to keep missing that point.

I understand your point. And my point is this: Due to the fees and effort involved in buying a silencer ($200 transfer tax; hundreds of dollars for a trust or the pain of getting fingerprinted, photographed, and signed off by local law enforcement; the very long wait; the fact that the silencer is only registered to them and selling it is very difficult), the cost of the core product itself is much less important than in other other industries.

A lot of people here are mentioning the cost. Well, even if a company managed to cut prices drastically, there would still be those extra costs and hassles to deal with, costs and hassles that the company has absolutely no control over; it's much harder for a manufacturer to pass on savings to the consumer when a large percentage of the total cost is completely out of their control due to regulation.

Your business model would make PERFECT sense if silencers were regulated like any other firearm, or at least they were a little easier to get. But they're not.

If nothing changes involving the BATFE, eventually prices will still come down. Inflation will cause the $200 tax to be worth less, and manufacturing costs will go down. We're in the middle of a silencer arms race, with companies constantly making their silencers quieter, more versatile, stronger, lighter, and (for rimfire and pistol silencers) easier to disassemble. Once this arms race settles down, smaller companies with much smaller R&D budgets will be able to compete more with the bigger guys. And prices will go down as a result.

It takes a person of unusually high integrity to step out and make a product for an honest price when it's easy to charge more. Such people do exist, but they are rare.

Apparently there are NONE of them in the US suppressor industry, who are in a position to make the decision to make cans at an affordable price and thereby own the market.

This is where you lose me. If this were possible given the state of the industry today, it would have happened already.

 

[robmints]

You have 6 pages of people responding with the cost being too high.

If you have such a high regulatory cost at each step, One thing the industry can't have and expect to expand their market is the distributor level.

Personally, I disagree with you about the admin costs. And many that have responded do also. This is not mystery paperwork that requires a lawyer to do. There is a time delay that affects stocking. But around here when you buy a suppressor you pay for it at the time of purchase, not time of delivery.

I think I read where in this thread you charge $150-$200 for a sparrow? They are $500 here, I can't find a discount. The market here must support $500 cans being sold at sufficient volume to support them being worthwhile for dealers to carry.

If suppressors were $350 all in I would have a trust and several already. And i am nowhere near alone. But here, one, with just fingerprints and sign-off is going to push $850-$900 and take a just about a year between CLEO and atf. That requires dedication. Selling something most consider over-priced for what it is does not instill dedication. And I'm not talking about the atf fee, most of us feel like the fee is nothing anyone has any chance to change at this time. It's fixed and a bitter pill. It's the cost of the product it's self that is not instilling the desire to make the commitment to the process.

You have 6 pages of people telling you why, and you trying to convince. Maybe consider a little believing us mixed in with the convincing. They are over-priced, and we aren't buying.

 

[Theohazard]

Personally, I disagree with you about the admin costs. And many that have responded do also. This is not mystery paperwork that requires a lawyer to do.

No, but it helps add to the overall costs. More work goes in to selling a suppressor on every level when compared to selling a normal firearm.

I think I read where in this thread you charge $150-$200 for a sparrow? They are $500 here, I can't find a discount. The market here must support $500 cans being sold at sufficient volume to support them being worthwhile for dealers to carry.

No, we charge $450 for a Sparrow. $150-$200 was our below-cost price on our old overstocked .22 cans.

You have 6 pages of people telling you why, and you trying to convince. Maybe consider a little believing us mixed in with the convincing. They are over-priced, and we aren't buying.

I think you're misunderstanding me, also. Of course they're overpriced for many people. I understand that. I'm not disputing that. I'm simply saying that they're overpriced due to the way the BATFE regulations affect the market overall, not because the companies are all working together to screw us.

And that's basically what Wyosmith was saying. He claimed he never said that, but if he's right how else would the prices stay so high? If it would be so easy for a company to swoop in and make cheap cans that everyone wanted to buy and therefore corner the market, why hasn't someone already done it? There are only two possible answers I can think of: Either there's an industry-wide conspiracy keeping any company from doing that, or it's just not possible in today's silencer market.

 

[robmints]

I don't even know how I got involved in this. I just signed up to research a shotgun for my son. Well, at least I feel like I made a couple of new friends. Theo, I think we agree more than disagree. We are just looking at it from different sides. I will add that while being sort of suppressor negative on this thread, every gun I have bought over the last several years has been the threaded version given a choice. And I know who I am seeking out for advise when the time comes to purchase.

 

[Willie Lowman]

There is a general consensus in the silencer market that only the latest and greatest are worth looking at/talking about/buying.

The fact is, there are cans designed and built a few years back that are still good cans. I paid $150 for my TAC-9. Sure it has the old fashioned threaded locking collar instead of the spring loaded kind that is seen on all the new 3-lug cans. Sure it weighs a lot, it's made of stainless not titanium. The other thing about it, it's quieter than a new Raptor II.

Theo talks about marking old cans down to get rid of them. I feel like I missed out on a deal. There are plenty of old suppressors I would be happy to own. (The SPR/M4 especially)

 

[mrvco]

For me it is the paperwork. If I could walk in and buy a silencer out right, even with the $200 tax stamp, I would have done it already. For now I simply have better uses for my time.

And if I do get around to going through the process, my priorities are going to be performance, durability and price, in that order.

 

[Theohazard]

I don't even know how I got involved in this. I just signed up to research a shotgun for my son. Well, at least I feel like I made a couple of new friends. Theo, I think we agree more than disagree. We are just looking at it from different sides. I will add that while being sort of suppressor negative on this thread, every gun I have bought over the last several years has been the threaded version given a choice. And I know who I am seeking out for advise when the time comes to purchase.

Welcome to TFL, my friend; I just realized you're a new member here. Yeah, I agree with almost everyone in this thread except on one matter of opinion; I think the high price of silencers is worth it and many others don't. But that's just personal preference; I can try to persuade them, but in the end there's no right or wrong on that subject. All I can say is be careful, once you start shooting with good silencers you're going to want to buy as many as you can afford!

Theo talks about marking old cans down to get rid of them. I feel like I missed out on a deal. There are plenty of old suppressors I would be happy to own. (The SPR/M4 especially)

Don't worry, Willie, that can wasn't one of them! And if it had been it wouldn't have lasted long at all. I wish AAC had never discontinued it, it's even quieter than an M4-2000; and the M4-2000 is one of the quietest cans on the market.

I guess there's just not as much demand for reflex cans anymore. Slip-over mounts don't fit on some barrels and the cans themselves are heavier. But I have a buddy who has one and another buddy who has two, and man are they quiet!

 

[DannyB1954]

Not saying it is so, but just asking. If someone near you was shot, and nobody heard it, wouldn't you become a person of interest?


Where were you 27 days ago, is not a question I would enjoy. I couldn't tell where I went the Tuesday before last.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

I consider that question to be more than a stretch but just for sake of entertaining it, what difference would it make if you did? First, I doubt "Nobody heard the shot." rises to probable cause for a search warrant. If it did, they'd check your gun and absolute worst case scenario if the calibers match they'd have to run ballistics tests. If they're shot with a 45 and your silencer is 9mm, there's not much of a case, eh? There's so many reasons that such a thing is unimaginable that I'd be more concerned about alien abductions.

 

[TennJed]

I can try to persuade them, but in the end there's no right or wrong on that subject. All I can say is be careful, once you start shooting with good silencers you're going to want to buy as many as you can afford!


!

I respect your passion but I an curious as to why you feel the need to persuade? A silencer would never be nothing more than a "fun" thing for me. And it is impossible for them to be more fun than a Single Action revolver in 45 colt. Give me smoke and thump any day.

I have no doubt that a SAA revolver is the best thing you can spend your money on, but I doubt you will agree or care, so I just accept that. Like you said there is no right or wrong. Keep enjoying them, and like the poster above, if I do decide to get into them I know who to come to with my questions

 

[Justice06RR]

You have 6 pages of people responding with the cost being too high.

If you have such a high regulatory cost at each step, One thing the industry can't have and expect to expand their market is the distributor level.

Personally, I disagree with you about the admin costs. And many that have responded do also. This is not mystery paperwork that requires a lawyer to do. There is a time delay that affects stocking. But around here when you buy a suppressor you pay for it at the time of purchase, not time of delivery.

I think I read where in this thread you charge $150-$200 for a sparrow? They are $500 here, I can't find a discount. The market here must support $500 cans being sold at sufficient volume to support them being worthwhile for dealers to carry.

If suppressors were $350 all in I would have a trust and several already. And i am nowhere near alone. But here, one, with just fingerprints and sign-off is going to push $850-$900 and take a just about a year between CLEO and atf. That requires dedication. Selling something most consider over-priced for what it is does not instill dedication. And I'm not talking about the atf fee, most of us feel like the fee is nothing anyone has any chance to change at this time. It's fixed and a bitter pill. It's the cost of the product it's self that is not instilling the desire to make the commitment to the process.

You have 6 pages of people telling you why, and you trying to convince. Maybe consider a little believing us mixed in with the convincing. They are over-priced, and we aren't buying.

Great point.

Wyosmith also had excellent explanations of the McDonald's principle, which I can also relate it to the current Walmart Principle.

Cost is one of the biggest factors in buying anything. Quality is usually second. Why? because most people don't have the budget to afford expensive items. Most people being like 99% (that's a rough estimate).

out of all the shooters I know, I think only 1 person out of 100 has a suppresor. Even a 'wealthy' friend of mine who owns 3 BMW's and a Noveske AR15 (look it up if you don't know about Noveske) does not have a suppresor.

The hassle and cost of it just does not justify buying one. If it did, I'd be the first in line to buy one and won't mind a 6month wait. But paying $600 for just the suppresor does not make sense for an average individual.

If they applied the McDonald's approach and sold them for say $200, there would be more interest in suppresors and more shooters will buy them.

For specificity sake, I'm talking about an AR15 suppressor: 300AAC BLK which costs $600. It's a very versatile suppressor which can be used for 7.62 and 5.56/223 caliber rifles.

 

[Theohazard]

Wyosmith also had excellent explanations of the McDonald's principle, which I can also relate it to the current Walmart Principle.

Yes he did. But unfortunately the Walmart and McDonald's business plan just won't work in an industry so heavily regulated like NFA items are. If we all want prices to go down, the best thing we can do is to petition our congresspeople to loosen the laws and allow the free market to have more influence like it does in the fast food business or the big box store business.

Unfortunately, Obama recently penned an Executive Action that asked the BATFE to make silencers even harder to get. The specific policies have been delayed for a while, but it's still driving prices even higher than they are now.

I agree that prices are too high. But Wyosmith just doesn't seem to understand that the McDonald's business plan doesn't work in an industry like this.

If they applied the McDonald's approach and sold them for say $200, there would be more interest in suppresors and more shooters will buy them.

There are already many companies selling silencers at very low price points; some as low as $200. But those companies are not doing very well at all. And that's because there's a very low to demand for cheap, inferior silencers when there's already a $200 tax and all the regulation involved with getting one.

 

[alex0535]

It's legal to have them in my state. Hunting with them is prohibited. Seems like a lot of trouble to go and get the local law enforcement to sign off on it. $200 and the price of a silencer makes it sort of expensive.

I have neighbors that don't like the noise of me shooting outside my house. One of them once threatened to "call the law". I yelled back not to bother, I would call them myself. So I did, and they sent an officer out and the officer informed me that I was doing nothing wrong or illegal and I could shoot anything I want to shoot outside as long as it was in a safe direction and that city folk move out to the country expecting it to be quiet but people shoot guns out here and it's their problem if they don't like to hear it.

I shoot rimfire and the occasional handgun in the front yard, louder guns I take out to the 60 acres of woods in the back of the property being semi-considerate of the neighbors. Noise is about a non-issue here. If it didn't cost me $200 to be able to own one, and getting the local police to sign off on it I would probably get one. Also none of my guns are threaded so I would have to get some gunsmith work done to be able to use it.

 

[NCummins]

I would love to own one to run on a .22lr pistol. Costs too much though. The $200 tax does exactly what it was designed to do, scare people away from them. That is the last thing I need is my name to be on any kind of list.