What's a well balanced gun(low bore-axis, trigger reset, etc related) under $600?

What wierd criteria? The only criticism I leveled at Glock was that they do not fit my hand well. I hardly consider that "wierd" as ergonomics plays a very major role in how well someone can use a particular gun.
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Amigo, to me that is weird criteria unless you have abnormally small hands. The ergonomics of the Glock are average. Grab one, or any other gun, and practice and you will get used to it.

I would rather look at reliability, accuracy, and wt - before subjectively deciding the grip was the most important thing on a $600 gun. Hey but that is just me.

Truthseeker was looking for the ability to fire multiple shots without a lot of muzzle flip. The glock "C" line seems to fit the bill. The wide and cheap availability of after-market ported barrels for Glocks would be a plus also. Since that was his main criteria I thought that my suggestion was a good one.

I don't remember Truthseeker saying he had girlish hands.

The stock G26 and G33 subcompacts have short grips that I don't like but with a mag extension they rock. You can get all sorts of modifications to the guns for very little (I paid $7 for the mag extension).

Anyway, the Gen 4 Glocks have adjustable grips etc which might change your opinion.

To me a gun should be reliable and accurate first. The Glock fits that bill.

Look at the current copy of Shooting Times Magazine. In it they talk to Bob Vogel (champion shooter with six IDPA titles etc). He says he shot a course with his wife's stock Glock 17 and shot the same score he did with a custom competition 1911. He switched to Glocks.

They are outstanding guns. For the price they are awesome guns. I think it is good advice to Truthseeker to consider one of them for his requirement.

You don't think so. Oh well.

What gun would you suggest for Truthseeker?
 
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Seems I've heard comment that the CZ handguns keep a low bore. They certainly shoot straight. If you're looking for a full-sized 9mm, then the CZ-75B is a great choice. If you might CCW, then probably the PCR or P01 would be better.

The 75B has a manual of arms similar to a 1911 (i.e. you can carry/keep it cocked-and-locked and you sweep down to fire), so if your .45 ends up being a 1911 style pistol, you'll feel quite comfortable with the 75B also.

If you start giving more though to the .357 mag, then a 4" Ruger GP-100 is very nice. Would make a very solid night-stand gun, and dry firing the double action trigger of a revolver will do a lot to improve your performance with all of your guns.
 
There are certainly other handguns capable of maintaining reliability under very adverse circumstances.

http://springfield-armory.primediaou.../SPstory11.php

http://pistol-training.com/archives/998

http://www.streetpro.com/usp/torture.html

http://www.americanhandgunner.com/Lasermax.html
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I finally read the links you gave me Webley:

XD Springfield cheated on the test by firing 17,500 rounds thus ensuring it had been loosened up for the torture test. In any case the loaded round indicator fell off after 10,000 rounds.

M&P - cracked its slide at 62,333 rounds. Junk.

HK - a 10K and 20K test. Not that impressive.

SIG 220 - silly meaningless testing which did result in damage.

I will throw in one more. I will never buy a Beretta. I have shot many M9's (model 92), including in ground combat. They jam all the freaken time. They are absolute junk. Faulty magazines, faulty slides, suseptable to dirt and sand. They are junk. In the late 80s the Marine Corps had to put a round cap at 600 rounds before slide replacement. Several M9's had blown off their slides at as low as 800 rounds. JUNK JUNK JUNK. On the other hand they feel good in your hands so you might be interested in one there Webley.

There are Glocks out there with 250,000 rounds shot and counting without problems.

One more hook for Truthseeker is that you could buy a Glock in .40 and then buy a wolf conversion barrel for the same gun to shoot 9 mm or .357 Sig and thus you would not have to buy two guns. The conversion barrels are a tick over a hundred bucks, or about 125 bucks for a ported version of the barrels.
 
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What's a well balanced gun(low bore-axis, trigger reset, etc related) under $600?
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Right at $600.00 (but as high as $725.00) - the Walther PPS in 9mm or .40SW. Maybe a used one for less??
 
Originally posted by Dc9Loser
Quote:
What wierd criteria? The only criticism I leveled at Glock was that they do not fit my hand well. I hardly consider that "wierd" as ergonomics plays a very major role in how well someone can use a particular gun.

Amigo, to me that is weird criteria unless you have abnormally small hands. The ergonomics of the Glock are average. Grab one, or any other gun, and practice and you will get used to it.
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Actually, I have fairly large hands. Many people complain about the long trigger reach of a CZ-75, but I've never found it to be a problem. So if the ergonomics of a Glock is so perfect for such a wide variety of people, why did they have to introduce the SF models and interchangeable backstraps of the 4th Generation? Handguns are not a one-size-fits-all product.

I would rather look at reliability, accuracy, and wt - before subjectively deciding the grip was the most important thing on a $600 gun. Hey but that is just me.
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Well, I've currently got 9 accurate and reliable handguns weighing anywhere from 19 to 42oz and none of them are Glocks. I figure when there are so many accurate and reliable handguns out there, I have the luxury of picking one that fits me well.

XD Springfield cheated on the test by firing 17,500 rounds thus ensuring it had been loosened up for the torture test. In any case the loaded round indicator fell off after 10,000 rounds.
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You do of course realize that firing 17,500 rounds before even starting also weakened the springs, which if anything would have compromised reliability. Also, the gun was still functioning even with the broken cocking indicator (a part that a Glock doesn't even have).

M&P - cracked its slide at 62,333 rounds. Junk.
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Remember, no preventative maintenance (such as changing the recoil spring) had been done. Even so, the gun was still running reliably in spite of the cracked slide. Also, perhaps you didn't notice this part from the article

The engineers inspected it, declared it safe, and suggested we keep shooting.

Then the lawyers intervened.
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http://pistol-training.com/archives/998

SIG 220 - silly meaningless testing which did result in damage.
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Cosmetic damage only. The gun was still functioned without a grip panel.

There are Glocks out there with 250,000 rounds shot and counting without problems.
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Do you have a link or proof of any kind?

Really though, these torture tests are kind of silly. No rational person would intentionally shoot tens of thousands of rounds without cleaning and otherwise maintaining their handgun. Similarly, I don't know many people that routinely freeze their handgun in a block of ice or run over it with their truck either. My point in posting the above links was simply to demonstrate that there are many pistols that can withstand more abuse and neglect than the vast majority of consumers would ever need them to.
 
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Okay, I have to decide now between a glock 21c, glock 30(heard it had the best accuracy out of all the glocks), px4 storm(I prefer hammers over strikers, it's just I like the look and durability, of course that hasn't proven striker guns like glocks wrong), or a s&w 4506(I will have to practice my form and aim techniques, which would be good practice and skill to show off too later down the line; plus this gun seems the most accurate out of the 3; I've seen people have less fliers with this one even though it's vertical, probably due to the muzzle flip. The only downside is that the 4506 had more between shots time from the videos I saw).

So when it comes down to it, I'm looking for a hard to find gun; the 3 most important characteristics to me are accuracy, muzzle flip, and slimmer grip. They also have to be in a .45 caliber, I should have said that first, sorry.

I already know what other firearms I want in the smaller calibers, and those are the hk p7, ruger or s&w 686 revolver(can't beat a 7 round cylinder, but also I want a slimmer revolver), and a ruger mark 3 with a tactical slide barrel. Those are going to make me pretty happy. Also even though CZ has the low bore axis, I still want to sell it for the money after I get a .45(I'd rather get the hk p7, but I hardly have enough), and I don't like double stack grips that much, but I guess I have to learn to deal with them. I will shoot one in the range though if I get the chance to get a feel for it.
 
Well balance means different things to different people. Meaning what balances for me may or may not balance for you.

I have several guns that seem to balance, but in reality, I have to work on the grip to get them to fit in my hand. My 1911 is that way, if I get a good grip, it works well.

Same with my N frames. But on the other hand, My 1964 just seems to fit no matter how I grab or pick it up. Its a heavy barreled 4 inch fix sight revolver in 38. Not the best gun for everything, but it fits me quite well.

The 65 and Model 13 Smiths or the heavy barreled model 10s would fit as well also I suppose.

Also what's great is they are fairly reasonably price ($250 - 350 depending on where you get them).

But, again, what works for me doesn't work for everyone.
 
I didn't see anyone mention a serrated front trigger guard. Check out the grip that Angus Hobdell has on the front page of the CZ Custom Shop website. He has his right index finger on the trigger, and his left index finger on the front of the trigger guard. This supposedly helps a shooter handle "muzzle flip". Something else to think about.

Also, truth_seeker, you mentioned that you prefer a slim grip. The CZ Custom Shop also sells grips for CZ's, and the thin aluminum grips really slim down the width of CZ pistols. I have a custom Shadow that has the thin aluminum grips and they really reduced the thickness of the Shadow. So much so that I bought a pair of the Cocobolo grips because the thin Aluminum grips to too thin for me. I know its a little out of your price range, but the regular Shadow has all the other criteria you mentioned in the first message in this thread.

Edit: Oops, I missed the 45 requirement. CZ-97 it is, then.
 
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Really though, these torture tests are kind of silly.
Well, at least we agree on that point.

After experiencing the POS the Military bought called the M9 (Berreta 92) I really have a hard time tolerating unreliable pistols. That is why I am a Glock guy although I only own two out of seven pistols I have. My other pistols have their good points but none are as good as the Glocks. They just aren't - they have all had at least a small problem or issue once except the Glocks. Glocks are good guns.

I hear bad things from people either in person or on the internet about most guns, but rarely anything about reliability of Glocks. There is a internet gun blogger nutafancy who said that he has a fellow shooter with over 250,000 rounds outta his Glock and counting.

But really you don't have to take my word for it - you have your own opinions. I was merely trying to give advice to Truthseeker. Others have given him other advice and it is up to him how he takes whose advice or his own insight.

I have to decide now between a glock 21c, glock 30(heard it had the best accuracy out of all the glocks), px4 storm(I prefer hammers over strikers, it's just I like the look and durability, of course that hasn't proven striker guns like glocks wrong), or a s&w 4506
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I have examined (but not shot) the Glock 30 and the PX4 Storm. The Glock 30 is nicely sized and I am sure 100% reliable as it is a Glock. The PX4 was a real sweetheart to hold in your hand - my only problem with it is my experience with the model 92 Berreta which was a nice shooter but very unreliable in rough use. They may well work fine if kept pristine but for me - I think they are junk. The PX4 might not suffer the same problems but honestly I'd have a hard time giving Beretta a chance - I'm sure there are guys on here who love them though.

Anyone out there shot these guns?
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Quote:
Webleymkv

Faster follow-up shots.
I guess because of less recoil, or muzzle flip.
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Simple mechanical advantage.

If the barrel were a foot above the handle it is easy to see that it would exert more force - like a lever or a wrench with a long handle.

If the barrel were exactly in the middle of the handle the force of recoil would be straight back rather than a twisting motion.

The closer the bore is to the handle vertically the less mechanical advantage it will have and thus less muzzle flip.

However, there are other ways of reducing muzzle flip though that might make a gun with a higher bore flip less in spite of itself. Progressive springs and porting come to mind but there are other ways too.

The AR-15 has a bore which is inline with its stock to reduce muzzle rise when you shoot it for the same reason.
 
I cannot speak for it in calibers other than 9mm but the Glock is very easy to get back on target and trigger reset is very fast if you know how to do it right. I only learned recently that the trigger can reset with very little forward travel and my shooting speed with the Glock has improved markedly with my scores, on paper, staying the same or even a bit better for the most part.:)

All the best,
Glenn B
 
The Springfield XD is a great choice. Very soft trigger and a low bore axis, at least for me! Mine is a 9mm w/5" barrel, the "tactical" model. It was formerly a duty sidearm. I would post pictures but my camera isn't speaking to my computer right now!:eek:
 
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So when it comes down to it, I'm looking for a hard to find gun; the 3 most important characteristics to me are accuracy, muzzle flip, and slimmer grip. They also have to be in a .45 caliber, I should have said that first, sorry.
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That pretty much says full size 1911 to me.

But really go rent some guns, try some on for size.
 
Brand New Beretta PX4 Storm inquiry...

Hello all,

I have recently purchased a brand spankin NEW Beretta PX4 Storm, .40 cal F-series and took it out for test drive this week for the first time at a nearby shooting range. The look of this gun is so awesome. First clip, my shoots were very accurate and not much of recoil. However I am scratching my head as to why it would fire twice and the slide would go back. I can see there is a bullet in the chamber already but not well seated. I then had to physically rack the slide back in place and it would fire again. This was repeatable over the 50 rounds that I had fired. I was wondering if anybody ran into similar situation like myself with the PX4 Storm. I did perform field strip at home prior to going to the range and added oil, maybe a bit more than necessary. I am leaning more toward maybe the clip springs aren't strong enough to push the ammo up the chamber during consecutive rounds. Other than that, I really like the feel and look of the PX4.

Can anybody shed some light as to what might be happening to my new TOY? Thank you in advance for your help.

- Kevin :rolleyes:
 
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