What's a well balanced gun(low bore-axis, trigger reset, etc related) under $600?

T

truth_seeker

New member
Hi,

I'm having some difficulty picking a good gun as I don't intend on having many firearms. I only plan to having two handguns(one in .45 or .40 and one in 9mm); I thought about getting the .357 but I heard about the higher bore axis and not getting back to your target fast enough because of that. I don't know if that applies to revolvers, but it does for semi-autos.

I know this is a touchy subject, and I'm not trying to beat the dead horse, but as I've said, I only plan to own a few and I expect for shots to count. I want a handgun that does follow up shots fast and accurately, and it's been a tough choice with all these opinions.

I also need one that is CA legal. I wanted an HK p7, but that was out of my price range. Then I looked at Steyr, but that is also out of my price range, not to mention they are harder to find on non-affiliated party online sites.

Originally, I wanted an S&W 4506 because of its slim grip and longer barrel for the higher velocity, and decocker, but I heard about it's high bore axis, when compared in a review to something like the PT1911 Taurus, so I heard the follow up shots were a little slower than the PT1911. However, the guy showed his shots, and one guy commented on how the S&W 4506 showed a tighter group, so I am pretty happy about that. Plus it has a pretty good trigger reset I heard. Still, that high bore axis...but maybe the longer barrel, mass, and density neutralizes the muzzle flip from it?

Also, I had a glock in my mind as well. Keep in my this choice has to be CA legal. Can I still get some advice, it will help, I don't have the time and money to rent each one sorry, I will do that later on my 2nd choice. I just need some statistics. Basically, I'd like a gun that has quick follow up shots due to the design in case you ever run up against more than 1 BG. I am not crazy, and I understand you guys had to close my other thread so you won't get into legal troubles, but believe me, my questions are just as legitimate as any other, I'm sure you've heard this one before at least...maybe not. Anyway reliability and shorter timing is all the difference which could complement training and skill(yes, I know that alone would count of course) for personal defense.
 
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I have a bunch of revolvers and semi autos. I have never really considered this question about bore axis. My first priority is to be reliable and well built. I prefer a 1911 but I have some S&W Revolvers that are not shabby especially my S&W 686 in .357 Magnum.

The 357 magnum has some recoil to it. I sold my Glock in .357 Sig due to recoil.

I think good technique and practice will more than compensate for bore location.

Go watch some Bob Munden video with the old thumbuster or Jerry Miculek. I realize they have some high end guns but if you gave them one out of the box or a regular one I still think they would do pretty good..
 
Hm, thanks for informing me on the 357. I love the sound of the cartridge though, it sounds almost like the perfect one for SD. I was wondering if the px4 storm was a good experience for some too. I heard the customer service sucks though, and there were a few problems that wasn't figured out yet which I think was the trigger when the gun was kept in a real low temperature around 50 C. They only have a 1 year warranty for those, 3 years if you send in the card, but that worries me. I love the rotating barrel idea though, so that's also a maybe on the list. The other thing that I mostly don't like about the px4 storm is the bulkier grip, or just the gun overall, since it's based on the 92f, so it's probably best kept at home. I know the S&W 4506 is a bigger gun, but the grip looks so slim, and I prefer a slimmer grip cause of the shirts I wear. I carried a CZ 82, and that has a shorter barrel, but the grip was bulky and stuck out as I walked, so that should say something at least, I hope.
 
Oh yeah I nearly forgot, I prefer something in a slimmer grip which is why I took ruger off my list of purchases. Those with tactical railing would also be a plus in what I'm looking for.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'd always like some guidance on picking good firearm pistols. I've subscribed to a few like nutnfancy and they always clarify things for me. I'll look those guys up.
 
In your price range:
Glock 38 in 45 GAP. Has 8 round magazine. Same size frame as Glock 19.

Glock 27. 40 S&W. Add a Pearce pinky rest magazine base for basically a full grip.

If you want to up the $.. I got a Kimber Ultra Carry II 45 acp with night sights for $820 + tax. Trigger, grip, and 7 round magazine meet your requirements.
 
Really, the whole bore axis thing depends on the individual. My S&W 1076 has roughly the same bore axis as the 4506 you mentioned earlier and I don't find my follow-up shots with it to be significantly slower than my S&W 1911 despite the 1911's lower bore axis. The best way to determine what's right for you would be to shoot as many different guns as you can and buy whichever one you can shoot the best.

Also, with regards to the recoil of a .357 Magnum, one of the nice things about a .357 revolver is that you can also shoot .38 Special ammunition which has much less recoil than full power magnums.
 
Me thinks you are too fixated on little details the marketing mavens screech about and not noticing the big picture.

How many pistols have you actually shot? If "bore axis" is your deciding factor, I would hazard a guess that it is a very small number. Do yourself a favor, save up some money, rent a dozen different pistols and shoot each one at least 100 rounds. Do no more than 3 guns per range trip, 1 would be better. Take notes about the gun, how it feels, how it points, the trigger action, how well you are able to shoot it, any problems, how to field strip / clean etc etc etc.

Then compare your notes and impressions to see which gun YOU like best. A good gun is like a good pair of work boots. It will just fit and become a natural part of you.

On caliber, for a first gun you might even think about a .22LR pistol like a Ruger MKIII or a Browning Buckmark. You can get a super accurate gun for 1/2 your target price. Then you will be able to afford to shoot a few thousand rounds to hone your skills. Then the second gun could be a 9mm or .40 or .45. Compare the cost of 2000 rounds of .22 VS the others and think about it.
 
I'm having some difficulty picking a good gun as I don't intend on having many firearms....
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Did you get the background check thing worked out? (from your previous post?) http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=342457

cougar gt-e

Me thinks you are too fixated on little details the marketing mavens screech about and not noticing the big picture.

How many pistols have you actually shot? If "bore axis" is your deciding factor, I would hazard a guess that it is a very small number. Do yourself a favor, save up some money, rent a dozen different pistols and shoot each one at least 100 rounds.
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Listen to cougar!! +1 there!!

You really need to find a place that will rent pistols and try before you buy. It is such a subjective decision you need to shoot any gun you are interested in.

I don't have the time and money to rent each one sorry, I will do that later on my 2nd choice.
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You really are doing this in the wrong order. It stinks buying a gun you hate from the get go. (ask me about my S&W 4046 LOL!)

For a first gun - some 357/38 revolver is always a good start.
 
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I dont have the biggest hands in the world.

My friend rented a Ruger SR9 at a local gun range. It points and shoots well. I was really impressed by it, The grip was nice. I am really wanting to try a SR9c. I recently had a problem with my new LCP. The folks at Ruger were very polite an PDQ about getting it shipped back. So cuatomer dervice there is a plus.

As far as a revolver check out some of the S&W at J&G Sales they are used but the two I purchased from them were in VG Condition.

I would put a Ruger SR9/SR9c on your list to try.

I would purchase one but I have a Browning HiPower, Glock Model 26 and a 92F in the gunsafe. The Glock 26 is 1st generation and still shoots like a champ.
 
Come again?

I would purchase one but I have a Browning HiPower, Glock Model 26 and a 92F in the gunsafe. The Glock 26 is 1st generation and still shoots like a champ.
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Is that a 1st generation glock 17, or a 3rd generation glock 26?
I am pretty sure that the glock 26 never came out in a 1st generation, and the first model 26's were 3rd.
Some model 19's are first, but they are rare. Most are 2nd.
Glock talk has a good list of whats what.

anyways, I do have a 1st gen glock 17, and it fits my hand like no other glock.
the grips is slimmer feeling and just is perfect, and the gun shoots incredible with a light trigger pull.
For me, the more slanted grip does mean lower bore axis ratio. More like a ruger mk I, II, and III, or the old colt woodsman, or the slant grip high standards.
 
That's true, Webley, good point. I've seen videos of people shooting the 4506, and I saw some pretty stable control of the muzzle flip as if there wasn't any from the gun. One commenter on youtube noted one guy's repositioning his aim after every shot.

But I've seen people shoot a px4 storm in 9mm and .40 but they seem to have less control of the muzzle flip, and they also took their time and repositioned their other hand, so that commenter just posted that without consideration. I thought the rotating barrel took cared of it.

Well cougar, you are right, it is obvious, and actually I have never even shot my CZ 82 at the range or in the mountains before. I guess I'm not just looking for bore axis, but a gun that has many qualities, but I know it's kind of hard to find a gun that has everything; slimmer grip, low bore-axis, long barrel 4.5"-5" for accuracy I guess; unless I have a lot of money unfortunately. I should try the range, but since I'm moving to CA sometime soon, I want to get one soon, it doesn't have to be a kimber or sig, or even older ones like browning. I realize the cheaper guns have some things are looking for, but there is always a compromise; like the ruger p345 or p90, or the 80 digit models have great design and lower bore axis(but here this might prove it wrong, but some say that it has decent accuracy relative to other pistols), but the grip is bulky, and I have some problems practicing concealing with the CZ 82.

alienbogey, ah, it seems I'm too late, the HK p7 is out of stock. That's too bad, but is this site reputable and not a scam? I want to see if they have other firearms for cheaper, they seem to have some good deals.

jglsprings, I did get my background check cleared, even if it's a misdameanor. I know you guys don't want to get your hands dirty, and I know there are LEOs here, so I don't want them to get the wrong idea. If there is a world-wide gun ban, I'd definitely want to give in my guns than get prison time. I've learned my lesson, but that related incident with battery is not the reason I wanted to get a firearm. There were neighbors that verbally said threatening things whether some were joking or not, and it's with their firearms. I prefer to live and use it only when they draw theirs at close range should a scenario like that occur, or run far away as possible under cover. I'm definitely getting a revolver in 357 as a collection, cause they just seem cool and good for protection, and I'm sure I can get used to the recoil, but I'll try .38 caliber cartridges as well; feels good that you can change. I'm surprised Taurus is not considered higher than S&W in revolvers, I know their raging bulls are popular, I think they were in games like Resident Evil and Rainbow Six Vegas :D...but I don't want to mention fantasy games, cause I know you guys don't want to be affiliated with games(like movies), cause you guys think they are for babies, jk.

Anyway, I guess I shouldn't listen to some of these guys that talk bad on it. But there are also several people who've had problems with S&W semi-autos. But they are usually the 2-3 digit models as far as I know. But yeah I shouldn't be listening to them or the marketing gimmicks and make my own decisions.

Eghad, that's one of the toughest decisions with guns as well, there could be pretty good pistols like Beretta, EAA, etc, but if their customer service sucks, it makes their purchase less attractive to me. I've heard of Ruger's great reputation, and I almost wanted the ruger p90, if it were not for the bulky grip and other choices I looked up like the S&W 4506. I know that's a long gun, but that slimmer grip just looks good to me.

HighValleyRanch,

Yeah I wanted a glock 35 or 36, whichever 45 had the longer barrel, or even the glock 21. Even though I've actually seen a firejam with the glock 45 caliber on tactical tim's videos, it just took a couple of hits on the bottom and the slide slid forward and fired shots smoothly afterwards. It's too bad you can't get competition guns like the glock 24 in CA, but er, I may sound stupid to want one and crazy.

The ruger Marks seem tempting guys. It sounds good to add to the collection cause it's unique. I would probably get a couple of modifications for it like the tactical slide that nutnfancy suggested, even though you have to still get it through your FFL. It has a low bore axis, long barrel, so I'm not sure why I saw some posters elsewhere online saying it isn't too accurate. Maybe it's the grip angle. But yeah I see your guy's point. I would love to rent out a ruger Mk series to see how they feel and how tight a group they result in on average.
 
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Glock 17 and Smith & Wesson M&P9 are both quality guns with low bore axis, under $600. Triggers aren't like those on a target gun, but that's not what they are.
 
If you are seeking the truth - well the truth is that overall the entire Glock line is the best for the money, maybe the best period.

That is why they are so common.

They are light, accurate, more reliable than any other gun anywhere, last practically forever, do not corrode, and they have your low bore axis.

I have a Glock 17 I bought after I got back from Desert Storm in 1991. Thousands of rounds and near two decades later it is tight and has NEVER even once jammed, misfired, or anything but go bang when the trigger was pulled.

A good all around gun (even CCW) in my opinion would be either the:

Glock 30 - has a full sized grip on a subcompact sized gun that holds 11 rounds of .45 ACP.

Glock 29 - put a plus mag extension on it and you will have a subcompact sized gun that fires 10 mm rounds which exceed the power of .357 mag and can be used for hunting or near anything else.

Glock 33 - I bought one of these and the .357 SIG round has good power and is easy to shoot. It has a snappy recoil but nothing that bad. I can double tap with it better than with a .40 and it is dead on accurate. With a plus extension on the magazines it holds 11 rounds.

The magazines from the larger guns fit the smaller guns. You can stick a 33 round mag from a glock 18 into a glock 26 for instance. Lastly if you want a holster or other accessory options the huge number of Glocks out there mean you have plenty to choose from at cheap prices.

Lots of people on here talk down about Glocks but the only real critique they can give to the line is that they are common and uninspiring.

One more thing is that compensated barrels for Glocks are cheap starting around a hundred bucks and going up. You can also buy a factory compensated "C" model which has a street price under $600. You can always buy a standard barrel for the "C" model if ya don't like the compensated mode. These options will give ya the ability to double/triple tap a target quite well.
 
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Dc9Loser
If you are seeking the truth - well the truth is that overall the entire Glock line is the best for the money, maybe the best period.
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Wow, I think perhaps you need to research the difference between fact and opinion.

That is why they are so common.
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So you don't think the low price that they sell them to LEO's for has anything to do with it?


Lots of people on here talk down about Glocks but the only real critique they can give to the line is that they are common and uninspiring.
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There are many legitimate reasons that a Glock is not the handgun for everyone. I personally don't care for them because they fit my hand like a bar of soap. A Glock is a fine gun, but it certainly isn't the only fine gun. Honestly, the whole "Glock is perfect" fanboy attitude has probably created more Glock haters, and more internet urination contests, than any other factor.
 
Wow, I think perhaps you need to research the difference between fact and opinion.
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It is a fact if you are looking for reliability, accuracy, and price. Please do not tell me another brand is as consistently as reliable as a Glock. Any other make, including various SIG's and other mostly great guns will not measure up in reliability.

I personally think SIG's and many others shoot better on average - but that is truely an opinion. Reliability is a fact.

There are scores of great pistols out there but for the money you will not do better unless you come up with weird criteria as you did in your post above.

That certainly does not mean that Glock is the end all. People buy guns for all sorts of reasons. I think Desert Eagles are kinda junk, but I would love to have one in .44 just for fun.

So you don't think the low price that they sell them to LEO's for has anything to do with it?
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Low price? Ah yeah, I think that is what part of the criteria was. Of course the reasonable price for a Glock is a major reason for them being so common.

Of course price is not the only factor for their success. I doubt you will find a pistol at any price that will beat a basic glock in wt/reliability/lack of maintenance. If ya go by some criteria involving hand fit beauty or other silliness well... a Glock might not do so well.

There are many legitimate reasons that a Glock is not the handgun for everyone. I personally don't care for them because they fit my hand like a bar of soap. A Glock is a fine gun, but it certainly isn't the only fine gun. Honestly, the whole "Glock is perfect" fanboy attitude has probably created more Glock haters, and more internet urination contests, than any other factor.
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I never claimed the Glock was the gun for everyone.

I said the Glock was the best gun for the price with the criteria which I believe Truthseeker specified. I stand by that claim.

Now if you want something shiny or cool or some other silliness, well then rock on.
 
Go to a range that rents GLOCK ,SW M&P ,SIG ,FN.etc. Try before you by will be money well spent in the long run .Talking from EXPREINCE.:o
 
Originally posted by Dc9Loser
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Wow, I think perhaps you need to research the difference between fact and opinion.

It is a fact if you are looking for reliability, accuracy, and price. Please do not tell me another brand is as consistently as reliable as a Glock. Any other make, including various SIG's and other mostly great guns will not measure up in reliability.

I personally think SIG's and many others shoot better on average - but that is truely an opinion. Reliability is a fact.
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Perhaps you'd care to document how much more reliable a Glock is than anything else? There are certainly other handguns capable of maintaining reliability under very adverse circumstances.

http://springfield-armory.primediaoutdoors.com/SPstory11.php

http://pistol-training.com/archives/998

http://www.streetpro.com/usp/torture.html

http://www.americanhandgunner.com/Lasermax.html

There are scores of great pistols out there but for the money you will not do better unless you come up with weird criteria as you did in your post above.
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What wierd criteria? The only criticism I leveled at Glock was that they do not fit my hand well. I hardly consider that "wierd" as ergonomics plays a very major role in how well someone can use a particular gun. If your Glock fits you, great. Gaston smiles upon you and all is right with the world. However, just because something fits you, that does not mean that it fits everyone else too. Those of us unfortunate enough not to be compatable with Gaston's great masterpiece are better off finding something else.

Quote:
So you don't think the low price that they sell them to LEO's for has anything to do with it?

Low price? Ah yeah, I think that is what part of the criteria was. Of course the reasonable price for a Glock is a major reason for them being so common.

Of course price is not the only factor for their success. I doubt you will find a pistol at any price that will beat a basic glock in wt/reliability/lack of maintenance. If ya go by some criteria involving hand fit beauty or other silliness well... a Glock might not do so well.
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My comments were mainly directed at the bolded part of this statement

If you are seeking the truth - well the truth is that overall the entire Glock line is the best for the money, maybe the best period.

That is why they are so common.
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Also, no one thus far but you has brought up "hand fit beauty or other silliness."

Quote:
There are many legitimate reasons that a Glock is not the handgun for everyone. I personally don't care for them because they fit my hand like a bar of soap. A Glock is a fine gun, but it certainly isn't the only fine gun. Honestly, the whole "Glock is perfect" fanboy attitude has probably created more Glock haters, and more internet urination contests, than any other factor.

I never claimed the Glock was the gun for everyone.

I said the Glock was the best gun for the price with the criteria which I believe Truthseeker specified. I stand by that claim.
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I was more responding to this statement

Lots of people on here talk down about Glocks but the only real critique they can give to the line is that they are common and uninspiring.
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I was pointing out that there are legitimate critiques other than "common and uninspiring". Since we are talking about the best gun for the OP, however, I'd like to point out this in case you missed it.

Originally posted by truth_seeker
Oh yeah I nearly forgot, I prefer something in a slimmer grip
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Glocks have rather wide, squarish grips that do not fit some people very well. Now, it is entirely possible that the OP is not one of those people, but without having shot a variety of guns, it is impossible for you, me, him, or anyone else to know which one will fit him the best.

Now if you want something shiny or cool or some other silliness, well then rock on.
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Who ever said anything about "shiny" or "cool?" You seem awfully sensitive to any criticism of Glocks, objective or otherwise.
 
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Well cougar, you are right, it is obvious, and actually I have never even shot my CZ 82 at the range or in the mountains before. I guess I'm not just looking for bore axis, but a gun that has many qualities, but I know it's kind of hard to find a gun that has everything; slimmer grip, low bore-axis, long barrel 4.5"-5" for accuracy I guess; unless I have a lot of money unfortunately. I should try the range, but since I'm moving to CA sometime soon, I want to get one soon, it doesn't have to be a kimber or sig, or even older ones like browning. I realize the cheaper guns have some things are looking for, but there is always a compromise; like the ruger p345 or p90, or the 80 digit models have great design and lower bore axis(but here this might prove it wrong, but some say that it has decent accuracy relative to other pistols), but the grip is bulky, and I have some problems practicing concealing with the CZ 82.
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It's sort of like a school homework assignment, but you may want to make up a table of the aspects of a gun you are interested in and the reason you want to have the gun. Some of the things you have written contradict others. Things like wanting a 5" barrel and wanting to CC the gun. If you are going to CC, get the smallest gun you can shoot accurately at 15-20 ft. If muzzle flip or recoil are things you want to avoid, get an all steel gun either mid-size or full size. But -> that will make it harder to conceal.

If I was once again in your shoes, I would just buy lots of ammo for the CZ-82. The Makarov 9x18mm is less powerful than the 9x19, but more powerful than the typical .380acp. You need to get a lot more experience with what you have, then YOU will have a better feel for what your next gun should be.
 
The truth is,you need to start with the cartridge you want to shoot and then rent several guns or borrow them from your friends at the range and shoot them.

I am still amazed by the rental Tangfolio 9mm, I shot almost twenty five years ago.

That said,I own a Ruger P95 ( I bought used for $225) that is amazingly easy to shoot well very fast.

When you find the gun you want to own by renting it or shooting it first,you'll know right away.
 
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