What's a good rifle to take on an international sail?

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Joseph

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I'm going to be sailing outside U.S. waters and piracy is always going to be a concern.

I've thought about a variation on the AR-15, such as the CAR, but wonder whether foreign police might confiscate it because of its appearance.

Access to ammo shouldn't be a major concern since I'll be bringing along enough.

Any thoughts?
 
I'd opt for a Springfield M1A.

Weight is not a consideration.
Ammo is universal.
Accurate.
Alows for long range shooting- start further if you know there is a threat.
 
I think a 50 caliber would be a "nice" long range sorta rifle.....Is your vessel equiped with good radar, night vision? I have within recent months met someone who has a rather large expensive power boat 80' or so and cruises to mexico quite a bit for vacation and marlin fishing.....he not only has the night vision, the radar, but carries quite a variiety to include the m1a's, ar's and shotguns...and I know there looking for a barret 50..........the trip prior to his last one that were shadowed by a couple of vessels but his boat will run up to 40 knotts (not all that fast, but not too slow either), the night vision and radar allows them to keep track of what is around them.......a question i have is what do you do with the weapons if your legitimately boarded?, Im not sure that all countries would honor arms in civilian hands....just curious....fubsy.
 
Joseph amigo!

You as I know most countries are understanding of the need for At least one rifle and one shotgun for sailboats/motorboats... My suggestion is something with good power, penetration and usability in a saline spray environment. My favorite would be a stainless or chrome plated M-14 (like a Springfield M1A) And the Mossberg "Marine" 12 gauge pump shot-gun in 590 configuration ( 8-shot and can be fitted w/ a nice M-16 bayonet). Oh Yes, I would suggest you invest in some armour peircing/ steel core .308...this will allow even more penetration through steel hulled vessels...

SMOOTH SAILING...

Peace
:cool: IZZY
 
In international waters (not within any nation's 12-mile boundary), you shouldn't have any worries about being "legitimately" boarded, since no nation has jurisdiction. If you dock, though, you'll be subject to their laws.

Hardware-wise... an M1A, or maybe a .50BMG on a bipod (secured to the foredeck). Serbu is cheap, but a good Barrett semi is better at repelling boarders.
 
On Rifle: I'd go m1a or FAL leaning toward FAL.

Maybe mount an Izzy Heavy Barreled FAL with lots of mags on the stern of vessel (I presume you are defending and not attacking so this is why i suggest stern)

That would be way way cool, you could be like a quasi riverine patrol craft.


If you had the Federal Reserve notes and are looking for the big .50 why dont you go with that semi-auto only version of the Browning m2 HMG. (I cant remeber were I saw this maybe a recent issue of G&A magazine)

Or get Ohio Ordnances BAR with lots of Mags.


I would not go 5.56mm as open water could call for some longer shots and the .308s will buck heavy wind better

Definitely get the 12ga pump just in case the captain hollers "prepare to repel boarders"

Mossberg 590a1 should do the trick.

I'll stop now as I have vicariously defended your vessel from the worlds dastardly pirates alla Calvin and Hobbes style.


Orso
 
I'd recommend a stainless Mini-14..for obvious reasons. Also, probably a marine shotgun of some kind. I personally like Rem. 870's.
 
Depending on swells, you may not be able to hit a frigate at a couple of hundred yards. Then again, if a frigate wants to approach and board you, you better play nice- your most likely overgunned anyway. If you tie up on foreign soil, a large caliber semi may be frowned upon and hard to overlook.

A nickel plated shotgun may be the best bet. If the hostile vessel approaches within 100 feet without hailing, You may be justified in using deadly force. A couple round of buckshot should keep them below decks why you E&E. Plus, I would think that a few slugs below waterline would keep anyone busy manning the bilge pump! Now if you are going into a questionable port, it's not going to be a big monetary loss if you have to heave the old trusty Remington over the side! (God forbid)

Any international maritime laws on this subject?
 
This is just my amateur opinion but I'd get at least two kinds of firearms on board:

1) a handgun you can wear often. Sometimes you never know when trouble will show up. For all you know someone could sneak aboard while you are tied up dockside. This may be an OOPS same compartment type shootout.
2) A rifle for longer range anti-boat shooting. I'm talking bust through their structure and hopefully mess up their engine, fuel tanks, start leaks, nail the odd pirate behind the bulkhead, etc. This is probably a .308 or .30-06 type of rifle. Magazine fed is something else I'd look into. AR-10, FAL, M1A, M1 Garand, etc. Don't forget extra magazines, etc. A Garand probably looks the least threatening for those who don't know what it is.

Whatever powerful rifle you get, keep in mind there may be more than one pirate boat so be able to reload in a hurry.

If you have plenty of $$$, I might also look at something for short range "repel-the-boarders" action like a .223 or a 12 gauge. I'm talking the bad guys boat is right alongside and they're jumping on board. This is probably something the big bore rifles could do easily but might as well bring more since you can carry a (pun intended) "boatload." A pump 12 gauge is probably the least threatening in appearance to police and least emotionally disturbing if they confiscate it.

I'd also look at bringing some gun-friends along. After all, what's better than a Garand firing back at the pirates at 200 yards? How about 3-4 Garands?? Also, someone ought to be awake on the boat at all times, whether on the ocean or tied up in port.

...and don't forget hearing protection!

Other useful stuff: The usual life preservers, life raft, emergency radios (more than one I say again MORE THAN ONE), flares, etc.

Hope that helps.

Edmund
 
Great info. SOF is running a cover story on exactly this issue, I found out today. Apparantly the folks going for a small sailboat are readily chased off by a couple of warning shots.

My boat is a Merit 25 which I'll be sailing alone. I plan on bringing all my pistols, and the M1A and Mossberg 590 looks like a great combination without looking as if I may start an insurrection.

It is of course for defense, but a .50 on the bow would look awfully cool. :cool:

[This message has been edited by Joseph (edited March 22, 2000).]
 
Fusby is right about having a 50 cal, radar and night vision. The incident of piracy is on the increase; especially on the China Seas. Pirates are threatening cargo ships with anti-tank rockets and full auto weaponry.

Range first is the rule in a seafight. Keep your distance, zig zag (which will shorten the distance but make you a harder target), and hit farther first with a longer range weapon. No close in stuff as you're going to be overwhelmed by their numerical advantage.

There was a recent article in Proceedings which mentioned how a Australian or NZ frigate stood by to dissuade a recent incident of piracy. Also, the Naval Institute Press has recently released a book about modern piracy (Jolly Roger with an Uzi).
 
Hi Joseph-

I am also a sailor and have gone through the same analysis process in the past. Unfortunately, some hard choices have to be made. My conclusions are as follows.

The typical tactical case is a 50 ft steel hull coming out straight at you 30 to 50 nm away from a coast (Malaysia, Columbia, Vietnam, you call it). Once you have established hostile intentions, you need 2 weapons - a light, high volume of fire one to keep the vessel away and the people off the decks and their firing positions, and a heavy weapon to attempt to destroy the seaworthiness of the vessel. For the first one you could go AK-47 or Mini-14 stainless. For the second one you need a .50 BMG. Don't forget to shoot at the top of the roll only.

A second tactical situation is individual defense when on the coast, at anchor for instance. For that I recommend handgun, tactical shotgun, and civilian looking rifle. For shotguns, the Mossberg 590 marine is OK (stainless), although the problem is that there are many returns on this firearm - lousy quality. I finally opted for a Benelli M3 Super 90, which also enables you to shoot big flares (convertible from semi auto to pump). For a handgun, I would recommend a Beretta Inox or a Glock. For a civvy looking rifle, I would recommend a Mini 14 stainless or a hunting rifle w/ as much stainless as possible.

Be careful - many countries simply forbid you to bring any weapons whatsever - such as Mexico, where you WILL end up in jail for 10 years +, or Thailand, which will execute you - even if you declare your firearms. What this means is that choosing to take firearms along means you will have to avoid all the countries for which it is a significant problem.

Take care - I logged many sailing hours on a Merit 25 in the 80s, and have several friends who singlehanded one to Hawai.
Mckysdad
 
Since military caliber firearms of any type are big no-nos in many countries, maybe a commercial bolt gun in a non-military chambering.

Bottom line is to know the laws at the ports you expect to visit and know the laws at the ports you must pass in transit (for emergencies). Pick up a copy of "World's most Dangerous Places" for the boat.

An Orange County man was held for ransom ($30k and we let you go) by the authorities when he had to port in Mexico after experiencing engine trouble. He had a couple of ARs on board for pirates (as is suggested by the State Department) and, as is required, he alerted the port authorities to that effect. He was only planning to ferry through the Panama Canal to bring a customer a boat.
 
I believe much depends on how your boat/vessel is papered. Under certain conditions your boat is considered part of U.S. territory and weapons are permitted, provided you can ensure they will not be removed from the boat and taken ashore. You may have to submit to your weapons being "sealed" and the seal subject to inspection until you leave.

If your craft is merely registered with a state agency, it doesn't have the same status and you cannot enter territorial waters of a nation with weapons if their laws prohibit them.

I recommend talking with an experienced maritime law attorney about this and check with the consular officials of every country whose territorial waters you expect to enter.
 
Joseph,
AT the very least look into getting night vision,,,,,goggles or binoculars would maybe be better. Being in a small sail boat your not going to outrun anyone, and "holding your own" against multiple power boats and armed "pirates" is not gonna happen. I would suggest avoidance if possible of areas that the us coast guard has recognized as dangerous and sail with other boats possibly.......check out the US coast guard for information concerning your trip including the carrying of firearms.......it might be wise to go over your route as well, they have a great deal of experience and knowledge---besides it never hurts to have the good guys know your out there. Ya see when your out there you cant call 911 and expect emergency services to show up...so plan well....Ive never done what your contemplating so whatever Ive said is strictly opinion from various discussions Ive had with sailors .....fubsy.
 
Another question about firearms and repelling boarders - if you're on deck firing away at the bad guys with the vessel gently rolling through swells, how do you make sure you don't slip on all the brass rolling about and get tossed into the ocean? Not being a SAILor (having at one time been a bubblehead), I would assume a safety line would restrict your movement and prevent you from performing the necessary evolutions topside to maintain your course and forward progress.
 
Originally posted by IZZY:
Joseph amigo!

Oh Yes, I would suggest you invest in some armour peircing/ steel core .308...this will allow even more penetration through steel hulled vessels.

The most economical way to get these are to bid on them on a site like gunbroker.com and then load em yourself. In the old vernable 06 the 162 grainers are very accurate with 50 grains of IMR 4895.



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Carlyle
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mckysdad,

I'm not a shotgun guy, so it's good to hear about the Mossberg quality. I like the 9 rounds it holds, but if it can't shoot them, then what's the point. Is the Rem. 870 more reliable? (Hate the four-round capacity.)
 
If you are sailing from bad ports nothing will prevent being bothered better than a 50 repeater on a rail mount, It can have the cover on and it still broadcasts DON'T MESS WITH ME. It can be taken down and stowed after leaving port with full confidence you won't be followed.. In the event you had to use it for self defense 10 rounds of Raufus multi purpose Armor piercing HP incendiary would be enough to sink or burn to the water line a 60 footer should it be necessary . That would cost somewhere around 150 dollars which is a good investment
 
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