Whatever happened to the 10mm comeback?
- Thread starter Forte S+W
- Start date
- Status
how so? my preference for the 10mm is self defense against criminal attack not hog hunting. that's no secret.
J.G. Terry
New member
Get then all!
First up, I could care less what the Big Box has in the ammo department. I shoot constantly and have not bought a box of factory ammo in over ten years. I reload them all. Furthermore, I got a G20, G21 and an HKC in 45 ACP. Also, a neat Series 80 1911. The real answer is to buy them all and reload.
You can be a 45 ACP man on even number days. On the odd day you can be a 10mm advocate. Works great. Today, it's the 45 ACP beats all. Tomorrow is another day where the 10mm is unbeatable.
First up, I could care less what the Big Box has in the ammo department. I shoot constantly and have not bought a box of factory ammo in over ten years. I reload them all. Furthermore, I got a G20, G21 and an HKC in 45 ACP. Also, a neat Series 80 1911. The real answer is to buy them all and reload.
You can be a 45 ACP man on even number days. On the odd day you can be a 10mm advocate. Works great. Today, it's the 45 ACP beats all. Tomorrow is another day where the 10mm is unbeatable.
Last edited:
Never understood the 40 or 10mm
Bought 3 41 Mags in the 70s, 3", 6", and 8 3/8". With 200s, I got 1298 in 3", 1475 in 6", and 1550 in 8 3/8". Didn't shoot 210s in the 3", but got 1400 in 6" and 1475 in 8 3/8". Over the years, the 41Mag has been less finicky with top loads than the 357 and the 44 Mag. A top auto load, for me, is a 45acp with a 200gr SWC over 7gr of Unique, for 1000. Tremendous accuracy and barks like a 357.
Bought 3 41 Mags in the 70s, 3", 6", and 8 3/8". With 200s, I got 1298 in 3", 1475 in 6", and 1550 in 8 3/8". Didn't shoot 210s in the 3", but got 1400 in 6" and 1475 in 8 3/8". Over the years, the 41Mag has been less finicky with top loads than the 357 and the 44 Mag. A top auto load, for me, is a 45acp with a 200gr SWC over 7gr of Unique, for 1000. Tremendous accuracy and barks like a 357.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
This thread began as a simple discussion of whether the 10mm is gaining or losing popularity. It seems to have morphed into another caliber war, and those discussions never end well. Let's please stay on topic. Thank you.
J.G. Terry
New member
Gaining
Gaining: I'd say from the number of new handguns in 10mm there is a demand. It would be hard to have slow walking and sad music for 10mm today. I'll stick with my old basic plastic 10mm.
Gaining: I'd say from the number of new handguns in 10mm there is a demand. It would be hard to have slow walking and sad music for 10mm today. I'll stick with my old basic plastic 10mm.
Omaha-BeenGlockin
New member
I bought a G20 about 2-3 years ago----it doesn't get shot regularly but very occasionally----mainly gets used when I take my trips out west.
More shots with an easy reload and way lighter than the S&W 629 that it replaced.
More shots with an easy reload and way lighter than the S&W 629 that it replaced.
The comments I was responding to implied that factory ammo for the 10mm was all equivalent to .40S&W loadings. That if you wanted anything hotter you had to reload or go boutique.
I provided evidence that the implication was incorrect. There is certainly 10mm ammo from major manufacturers that clearly exceeds anything in .40 S&W.
I understand that you have specific preferences in 10mm ammunition, but that's kind of a separate issue to the one I was responding to.
wild cat mccane
New member
It was pointed out that no hollow point bullet supports full 10mm FPS and a 9mm HST does about everything needed in a bullet in general...
Speer (Vista Outdoors which owns CCI and Federal) released their Gold Dot 10mm in low FPS. Why? Does Double Tap or Underwood know more about Speer's own Gold Dot bullet than Vista Outdoors? no.
Sure, you can load the XTP Hornady fast. But so what? The XTP is designed to NOT expand massively like the HST or Gold Dot bullet. So...if HST and Gold Dot are the bar setter for expansion and penetration, what are you getting in a personal defense round that offers less expansion but too much penetration in 10mm hot? Nothing.
Speer (Vista Outdoors which owns CCI and Federal) released their Gold Dot 10mm in low FPS. Why? Does Double Tap or Underwood know more about Speer's own Gold Dot bullet than Vista Outdoors? no.
Sure, you can load the XTP Hornady fast. But so what? The XTP is designed to NOT expand massively like the HST or Gold Dot bullet. So...if HST and Gold Dot are the bar setter for expansion and penetration, what are you getting in a personal defense round that offers less expansion but too much penetration in 10mm hot? Nothing.
J.G. Terry
New member
I think this thread just tanked when 9mm is to out run 10mm.
My bet is as the acceptance of 10mm continues more components will be offered. This time round looks like 10 mm will be around for some time. No funeral yet. Got my G20 out. Installed the Lone Wolf barrel as to not defend use of lead bullets.
My bet is as the acceptance of 10mm continues more components will be offered. This time round looks like 10 mm will be around for some time. No funeral yet. Got my G20 out. Installed the Lone Wolf barrel as to not defend use of lead bullets.
Last edited:
I realized I didn't address the OP's original question, "Whatever happened to the 10mm comeback?" Well, the answer is easy. It didn't go anywhere so it had nowhere to 'come back' from. It's always been more of a hunting caliber in my book so it's appeal is limited.
The question is kinda the same as asking where the 458 Winchester Magnum comeback went. The fact is that it's a big game caliber intended for larger animals than are in North America so it's appeal has always been limited here. It didn't go anywhere either so it also had nowhere to 'come back' from.
The 10mm has some very serious advantages as a woods gun. In a Glock, it's got power, capacity, harsh element resistance, and comfort going for it. As I've said many times before, my G20L, with 17+1rds of 165grn 10mm fires a larger diameter, heavier bullet faster than my hot 158grn .357 Mag loads out of a 6" S&W 686. That's correct, larger, heavier, faster, with more muzzle energy.
(Yep, I handload hot 158grn .357 Mag loads for my Rossi leverguns using both H110 and more recently Lil'Gun and I've chrono'd them both at my range. My original comparisons were between Power Pistol in 10mm and H110 in .357 Mag, however, more recently I've switched to Lil'Gun for my .357 Mag ammo. While I've found that Lil'Gun produces higher velocities than H110 in longer barreled rifles, it's actually a bit slower in pistol length barrels as Hodgdon's own load data confirms.)
Yes, it's true that the 10mm is larger, heavier, faster, with more muzzle energy from a 6" barreled pistol than my hot 158grn .357 Mag loads are. Plus, my G20L, with 3 times the ammo load on board, is more compact and weighs less than the S&W does with only 6 rounds on board. And, as the S&W is a classic revolver with a high bore axis and an inverted cone shaped grip that's not conducive to a solid hold, my Glock is also significantly faster and more accurate for me in followup shots as well.
And, if that weren't enough, even though the S&W's trigger in single action is much better, it's long pull as a double action in subsequent shots, it makes it significantly harder to produce accurate, rapid repeat shots. Yes, there are those out there who'll say that they can deliver accurate rapid fire with their revolvers and maybe they can, but in 60 years of shooting, I've never been able to get accurate second and subsequent shots with any double action revolver, even an old Taurus 22lr model I wore out shooting that was shaped like a baby 686. (Loved that old pistol.)
The question is kinda the same as asking where the 458 Winchester Magnum comeback went. The fact is that it's a big game caliber intended for larger animals than are in North America so it's appeal has always been limited here. It didn't go anywhere either so it also had nowhere to 'come back' from.
The 10mm has some very serious advantages as a woods gun. In a Glock, it's got power, capacity, harsh element resistance, and comfort going for it. As I've said many times before, my G20L, with 17+1rds of 165grn 10mm fires a larger diameter, heavier bullet faster than my hot 158grn .357 Mag loads out of a 6" S&W 686. That's correct, larger, heavier, faster, with more muzzle energy.
(Yep, I handload hot 158grn .357 Mag loads for my Rossi leverguns using both H110 and more recently Lil'Gun and I've chrono'd them both at my range. My original comparisons were between Power Pistol in 10mm and H110 in .357 Mag, however, more recently I've switched to Lil'Gun for my .357 Mag ammo. While I've found that Lil'Gun produces higher velocities than H110 in longer barreled rifles, it's actually a bit slower in pistol length barrels as Hodgdon's own load data confirms.)
Yes, it's true that the 10mm is larger, heavier, faster, with more muzzle energy from a 6" barreled pistol than my hot 158grn .357 Mag loads are. Plus, my G20L, with 3 times the ammo load on board, is more compact and weighs less than the S&W does with only 6 rounds on board. And, as the S&W is a classic revolver with a high bore axis and an inverted cone shaped grip that's not conducive to a solid hold, my Glock is also significantly faster and more accurate for me in followup shots as well.
And, if that weren't enough, even though the S&W's trigger in single action is much better, it's long pull as a double action in subsequent shots, it makes it significantly harder to produce accurate, rapid repeat shots. Yes, there are those out there who'll say that they can deliver accurate rapid fire with their revolvers and maybe they can, but in 60 years of shooting, I've never been able to get accurate second and subsequent shots with any double action revolver, even an old Taurus 22lr model I wore out shooting that was shaped like a baby 686. (Loved that old pistol.)
wild cat mccane
New member
What 10mm bullet construction outperforms HST 9mm for self defense? None.
Serious. Don't give me weights and lbs. So what?
A recent video from Federal's plant had an employee say the same. So what if it's heavy? If velocity isn't hitting rifle level velocity, so what if the lbs delivered is higher? Literally, what does that matter? It's about hitting expansion and the right depth. Federal of course is the DOD provider at Lake City--aka the largest manufacture of ammunition in the US. Along with ATK, they build rockets. They know more than a guy at Buffalo Bore that buys their bullet and loads it high. (PS, Underwood loads old style "uni-core" CCI bullets, not current Gold Dots)
So what if it's 180gr, 135gr, or 200gr at a million FPS and LBS? Na. Serious. So what?
The point of old day velocity talk was to get expansion. Now HST and Gold Dot and Ranger hit expansion without massive velocity. Velocity that isn't rifle level isn't doing rifle damage. So, velocity isn't the huge variable any longer.
The HST bullet expands and hits the right depth. What more do you think is going to happen?
There is no 10mm bullet that's doing better expansion, staying within reasonable penetration, and not costing my left leg.
Internet lore.
Serious. Don't give me weights and lbs. So what?
A recent video from Federal's plant had an employee say the same. So what if it's heavy? If velocity isn't hitting rifle level velocity, so what if the lbs delivered is higher? Literally, what does that matter? It's about hitting expansion and the right depth. Federal of course is the DOD provider at Lake City--aka the largest manufacture of ammunition in the US. Along with ATK, they build rockets. They know more than a guy at Buffalo Bore that buys their bullet and loads it high. (PS, Underwood loads old style "uni-core" CCI bullets, not current Gold Dots)
So what if it's 180gr, 135gr, or 200gr at a million FPS and LBS? Na. Serious. So what?
The point of old day velocity talk was to get expansion. Now HST and Gold Dot and Ranger hit expansion without massive velocity. Velocity that isn't rifle level isn't doing rifle damage. So, velocity isn't the huge variable any longer.
The HST bullet expands and hits the right depth. What more do you think is going to happen?
There is no 10mm bullet that's doing better expansion, staying within reasonable penetration, and not costing my left leg.
Internet lore.
Whoever said that is an unstudied moron in the history of the 10mm cartridge.
Hornady's line of 10mm XTP-HP and FMJ-FP bullets were developed specifically to handle Norma 10mm velocities. This occurred after the FBI publically stated that its primary ballistic goal was penetration, and then signaled it favored the 10mm cartridge over the 9mm and .45acp in satisfying that goal.
This was all before the .40S&W cartridge was even invented.
Other HPs were already being developed by Federal, Remington, and Winchester (STHPs) that would penetrate and expand at Norma-level velocities. This too was, again, before the .40S&W came out.
After a discussion about penetration and expansion that last caveat seems to be kind of snuck in there. My 10MMs ride around with 200 grain ammunition in them from UnderWood. Is that outside of the caveat or in it? What is an arm and a leg in cost per round? Some of the 9MM ammo I bought is within 20% when discussing self defense rounds so what is the cut-off?
Comeback? Not sure. A particular cartridge only needs a "critical mass" before its stable. I can readily purchase 10MM ammunition so I would argue it has hit that critical mass. I order virtually all of my ammunition (even for 9MM) in quantity so store shelf stocking is not vital to me. I would not depend on Wally World or the like to stock premium defensive ammunition for anything so I'm not sure that's an appropriate benchmark.
I mean does the .32 need a comeback? As long as ammo is readily available for it its good enough and will support the guns available new chambered in it.
And what exactly is a comeback? Rivaling the 9MM? That is not going to happen with anything in the near future as the goalposts move closer and closer to what the 9MM already does.
All I care about is that the 10MM does not fade into obscurity that has me casting my own bullets and chasing my brass as precious and irreplaceable. I would say it has come back that level where the future supply of ammunition is pretty much assured.
wild cat mccane
New member
Exactly. The XTP round is designed not to massively expand.
You nailed my point.
Now. Why would you want the XTP round in 10mm, which will go beyond where you want/need, when the HST goes where it needs to go and expands more? What does that distance beyond what you want do for you? Nothing.
Possibly hunting? Okay. I buy that.
But for personal defense? You want a XTP that goes too deep with smaller expansion than the HST that expands huge and goes has far as needed?
To this point, the 9mm XTP Custom by Hornady also goes has far as needed, with smaller expansion than the HST.
See? What's the point of 10mm if it's not an argument of hunting? You gain nothing on a defense role. When you match HST 9mm in a bullet in 10mm, the 10mm hollow point is always an older bullet that needed extra velocity to expand. Those days are done. Federal 115gr +P Hi Shok that required high velocity to expand? No longer needed. That bullet still works, but it's inferior to Federals current Gold Dot and HST offering. Heck, even Gold Dot has already updated twice. From "Uni-core" bonded, to Gold Dot, and G2. 10mm Speer from Underwood? Loaded with "Uni-core" bonded. Says so right on their website. That's not the current "G1" or G2 bullet.
Velocity isn't a thing anymore. That's the glory of Gold Dot, HST, Ranger. The velocity needed to open harder/older hollow point rounds isn't required anymore.
Do these bullets support 10mm high FPS without breaking up? Mabye. But what's the point?
You nailed my point.
Now. Why would you want the XTP round in 10mm, which will go beyond where you want/need, when the HST goes where it needs to go and expands more? What does that distance beyond what you want do for you? Nothing.
Possibly hunting? Okay. I buy that.
But for personal defense? You want a XTP that goes too deep with smaller expansion than the HST that expands huge and goes has far as needed?
To this point, the 9mm XTP Custom by Hornady also goes has far as needed, with smaller expansion than the HST.
See? What's the point of 10mm if it's not an argument of hunting? You gain nothing on a defense role. When you match HST 9mm in a bullet in 10mm, the 10mm hollow point is always an older bullet that needed extra velocity to expand. Those days are done. Federal 115gr +P Hi Shok that required high velocity to expand? No longer needed. That bullet still works, but it's inferior to Federals current Gold Dot and HST offering. Heck, even Gold Dot has already updated twice. From "Uni-core" bonded, to Gold Dot, and G2. 10mm Speer from Underwood? Loaded with "Uni-core" bonded. Says so right on their website. That's not the current "G1" or G2 bullet.
Velocity isn't a thing anymore. That's the glory of Gold Dot, HST, Ranger. The velocity needed to open harder/older hollow point rounds isn't required anymore.
Do these bullets support 10mm high FPS without breaking up? Mabye. But what's the point?
Last edited:
How do we have this discussion without dancing around the caliber line war?
For use in self defense against two legged threats not wearing body armor or using effective cover has set the current standard. I think there are some important caveat in that statement and we could argue if that standard is the final correct answer or not but then we dive deeply into the caliber war. The advantage, to me, of 10MM comes when you discuss a "do everything" concealable pistol for hiking in areas where the threat may roam on two legs or four.
But the question ultimately was about the comeback of the 10MM. To me the 10MM has reached a critical mass where practice ammo from "normal" manufacturers is available without costing the same as defensive ammo or forcing the user to reload. I would compare it to the likes of the .45 Super or the .40 Super which are not at that mass. I can reasonably expect to find 10MM firearms and ammunition available without custom ordering them
For use in self defense against two legged threats not wearing body armor or using effective cover has set the current standard. I think there are some important caveat in that statement and we could argue if that standard is the final correct answer or not but then we dive deeply into the caliber war. The advantage, to me, of 10MM comes when you discuss a "do everything" concealable pistol for hiking in areas where the threat may roam on two legs or four.
But the question ultimately was about the comeback of the 10MM. To me the 10MM has reached a critical mass where practice ammo from "normal" manufacturers is available without costing the same as defensive ammo or forcing the user to reload. I would compare it to the likes of the .45 Super or the .40 Super which are not at that mass. I can reasonably expect to find 10MM firearms and ammunition available without custom ordering them
corneileous
New member
That’s a pretty good point you made about the weaker 10mm hollow points being the watered down, low power versions. I didn’t really buy my sig 220 for defense against two-legged predators but when I was keeping it loaded around the house for anything other than 4-legged predators, I use the Sig V-crown hollow points because I figured those were the only full-power 10mm loads I could find.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Once again, your self promoting answer ignores the entire discussion of what the 10mm is best at, that of a hunting pistol. Yes, a thin skinned, weak animal like a human can be brought down with even low powered pistol calibers so your argument for self defense from 2 legged threats has some merit even though it's wrong.
However, you overstate the performance of the 9mm and understate the performance of the 10mm or 45acp to support your wild assertions. But, your argument falls completely apart when we talk about hunting or defense against the very things the 10mm is used for, hunting or defense against thicker skinned and possibly aggressive 4 legged animals.
There muzzle energy matters. There bullet weight matters. There caliber matters. Anyone who seriously believes that a 9mm would make a decent woods gun is either lying or a fool. So, get off your soap box and read the posts here. Think before you post.
Wow, has this thread veered off course...
I ask a question about whatever happened to the 10mm Auto's comeback into mainstream popularity as prophesied by numerous writers, but now the thread has devolved into the usual caliber war territory in which the absurd argument is being made that 10mm is no more effective than 9mm.
*sighs* Why can't fans of the 9mm Luger cartridge be satisfied with the fact that it is the most popular cartridge for self-defense/law enforcement worldwide? Why must it be the absolute best cartridge ever for self-defense/law enforcement which renders all other cartridges practically useless? It's an argument that's as absurd as it is pointless.
You wanna know what, you're right! 9mm is the best thing ever, so is whatever vehicle you drive, whatever device that you're typing from, whatever clothes you are wearing, and your dad can totally beat up everyone else's dad. Satisfied? Can we actually return to the topic of the 10mm comeback now or should I go get my tape measure for the next big contest?
I ask a question about whatever happened to the 10mm Auto's comeback into mainstream popularity as prophesied by numerous writers, but now the thread has devolved into the usual caliber war territory in which the absurd argument is being made that 10mm is no more effective than 9mm.
*sighs* Why can't fans of the 9mm Luger cartridge be satisfied with the fact that it is the most popular cartridge for self-defense/law enforcement worldwide? Why must it be the absolute best cartridge ever for self-defense/law enforcement which renders all other cartridges practically useless? It's an argument that's as absurd as it is pointless.
You wanna know what, you're right! 9mm is the best thing ever, so is whatever vehicle you drive, whatever device that you're typing from, whatever clothes you are wearing, and your dad can totally beat up everyone else's dad. Satisfied? Can we actually return to the topic of the 10mm comeback now or should I go get my tape measure for the next big contest?
Aguila Blanca
Staff
The answer to that seems straightforward to me. Is the 10mm making a comeback, or is it fading into obscurity?Lohman446 said:
How many makers are offering how many 10mm model pistols today? Is that number more or less than five years ago, or ten years ago?
How much 10mm ammunition is being sold today? Is that more or less than five years ago, or ten years ago?
The numbers would tell the tale, with no need whatsoever to even mention another caliber/chambering.
- Status