What would you have done?
- Thread starter ch47gunner
- Start date
? Those are BIG differences!Back when I first got my CCW, in the training class we had to rehearse some statements to yell when an intruder was approaching.
"Stop, Do not come in here, The Police are on their way, I have a gun, if you come in I will shoot you"
If there was time we were also supposed to have called 911 first and leave the phone line open so the dispatcher would hear the exchange and it would be recorded in case discharge of the weapon was required to assist with proving justification.
There was discussion of stories similar to the one cited here, including the intruder being the homeowner's own son who was drunk and despondent from a divorce.
I was surprised because on night I was sitting home watching TV and the light fixture over the sink fell off and broke in the sink. It sounded like someone was coming in through the window and I actually had "Stop, Do not come in here" out of my mouth before I saw it was just a light fixture. I guess it had become instinct to announce the warning.
"Stop, Do not come in here, The Police are on their way, I have a gun, if you come in I will shoot you"
If there was time we were also supposed to have called 911 first and leave the phone line open so the dispatcher would hear the exchange and it would be recorded in case discharge of the weapon was required to assist with proving justification.
There was discussion of stories similar to the one cited here, including the intruder being the homeowner's own son who was drunk and despondent from a divorce.
I was surprised because on night I was sitting home watching TV and the light fixture over the sink fell off and broke in the sink. It sounded like someone was coming in through the window and I actually had "Stop, Do not come in here" out of my mouth before I saw it was just a light fixture. I guess it had become instinct to announce the warning.
Depending on your state laws, that may not matter. There are many states that have laws which automaticly find you in grave danger upon a break-in, and you would be justified in shooting any intruder. Know your state laws. (Learned this one from Lurper).
That being said, if you can get him to stop by announcing you are armed and have called the police, I agree, you will sleep better knowing you avoided shooting someone you didn't have to.
tough question
In Texas, citizens are no longer required to retreat in the event that they are at home, in their vehicle, or place of business when threatened. With that and the rough area I live in in mind, my dad and I keep our Benelli shotguns loaded and by our beds whenever we are in town. I do not live at home, but the first thing I pack to come back is that shotgun. My mom has also been trained to use both the 12-ga. and her .38 snub. Part of me would like to say that I could have enough restraint not to shoot someone who entered my home to give them that chance. In my situation, I have a 9 yr. old brother, so I would hope to blow away anything I thought was a threat to his safety. For the reason of the difficulty of this decision, my dad and I have made sure that the first round in these shotguns is either salt, ratshot, or a dummy round (rubber riot bullet) to avoid a potentially fatal mistake. With those, I guess we would at least have the chance of using a live one if necessary. If the firing of the first round did not show our intent clearly enough. You definitely made the right call in retrospect, but like many have said, that hesitation could have killed you.
In Texas, citizens are no longer required to retreat in the event that they are at home, in their vehicle, or place of business when threatened. With that and the rough area I live in in mind, my dad and I keep our Benelli shotguns loaded and by our beds whenever we are in town. I do not live at home, but the first thing I pack to come back is that shotgun. My mom has also been trained to use both the 12-ga. and her .38 snub. Part of me would like to say that I could have enough restraint not to shoot someone who entered my home to give them that chance. In my situation, I have a 9 yr. old brother, so I would hope to blow away anything I thought was a threat to his safety. For the reason of the difficulty of this decision, my dad and I have made sure that the first round in these shotguns is either salt, ratshot, or a dummy round (rubber riot bullet) to avoid a potentially fatal mistake. With those, I guess we would at least have the chance of using a live one if necessary. If the firing of the first round did not show our intent clearly enough. You definitely made the right call in retrospect, but like many have said, that hesitation could have killed you.
Read this post, sat back and thought for a bit, and I've come to this conclusion. The real question isn't so much "what should you have done" since the outcome was favorable in the end.
The REAL question is now -what should you DO-.
For example. Apparently your door (like most houses) was pretty "soft" and didn't do much to slow the intruder. You need to harden your residence better. You can find tons of advice about how to do so on the web.
You need to have some method for illuminating the scene. A powerful flashlight is good (Surefire, pentagonlight, Night-ops and the like) but I also know people who have wired up a switch to illuminate hallways, stairwells, etc from their bedrooms.
Practiced response (division of labor) you get the gun, the wife gets the phone and starts dialing, or whatever method you work out to ensure immediate safety AND that the calvery is on the way.
Just a few thoughts for now.
Ze
The REAL question is now -what should you DO-.
For example. Apparently your door (like most houses) was pretty "soft" and didn't do much to slow the intruder. You need to harden your residence better. You can find tons of advice about how to do so on the web.
You need to have some method for illuminating the scene. A powerful flashlight is good (Surefire, pentagonlight, Night-ops and the like) but I also know people who have wired up a switch to illuminate hallways, stairwells, etc from their bedrooms.
Practiced response (division of labor) you get the gun, the wife gets the phone and starts dialing, or whatever method you work out to ensure immediate safety AND that the calvery is on the way.
Just a few thoughts for now.
Ze
so true...
Very true, Ze. I can't help but think of the house in "hostage" with Bruce Willis when you mention re-working the residence. It definitely is a good plan, though. After recieving the insurance check from a break-in at my home in which a Mossberg 12, a .244, a couple of Marlin .30-.30's and my Steyr M-40 were stolen, my dad and I took it upon ourselves to reinforce our home. Living in a mobile home, it is difficult to prevent break-ins, but they are very easy to modify to prevent future problems. All of our exterior doors recieved double-lock deadbolts and a frame made of 4-in Channel that was bolted directly to the frame of the home. The doors were also equipped with a second dead bolt for added safety. The glass on the doors was replaced with the impact-resistant fire glass that you find in schools, etc. laced with wire. All interior doors were fitted with slide locks so that we can lock ourselves in our rooms. We also have phones in all of them. My favorite mod to the bedrooms was integrating our alarm system with a keypad that even my 9 yr. old brother can use. It turns on interior flood lights and a siren, as well as exterior flashing light and wailer to alert police and neighbors to the location. While this system seems to be overkil, we have not been broken into since the installation of this system 10 years ago. But, maybe that's because of Jewels and Muffin, my Dobie/Rott sisters. hahaha
Very true, Ze. I can't help but think of the house in "hostage" with Bruce Willis when you mention re-working the residence. It definitely is a good plan, though. After recieving the insurance check from a break-in at my home in which a Mossberg 12, a .244, a couple of Marlin .30-.30's and my Steyr M-40 were stolen, my dad and I took it upon ourselves to reinforce our home. Living in a mobile home, it is difficult to prevent break-ins, but they are very easy to modify to prevent future problems. All of our exterior doors recieved double-lock deadbolts and a frame made of 4-in Channel that was bolted directly to the frame of the home. The doors were also equipped with a second dead bolt for added safety. The glass on the doors was replaced with the impact-resistant fire glass that you find in schools, etc. laced with wire. All interior doors were fitted with slide locks so that we can lock ourselves in our rooms. We also have phones in all of them. My favorite mod to the bedrooms was integrating our alarm system with a keypad that even my 9 yr. old brother can use. It turns on interior flood lights and a siren, as well as exterior flashing light and wailer to alert police and neighbors to the location. While this system seems to be overkil, we have not been broken into since the installation of this system 10 years ago. But, maybe that's because of Jewels and Muffin, my Dobie/Rott sisters. hahaha
Take a look at Box O' Truth on Rock Salt as a shotgun load. Unless you are trying to prepare Thanksgiving dinner in a real hurry, it does not do much.
rock salt
Mlandman, I never saw that I just know that it is supposed to cause quite a bit of discomfort, especially at the close ranges found in a home. Good to know, though, I think I'll stick with a rubber bullet for the first round and let the dove load do the talking after that. I think if I could get a better choke, I would move up to a heavy game load, but I have too many people in the home to risk that deep penetration everywhere.
Mlandman, I never saw that I just know that it is supposed to cause quite a bit of discomfort, especially at the close ranges found in a home. Good to know, though, I think I'll stick with a rubber bullet for the first round and let the dove load do the talking after that. I think if I could get a better choke, I would move up to a heavy game load, but I have too many people in the home to risk that deep penetration everywhere.
One Wrong Move
You stood up! That is the ONLY thing I can see that even comes close to being wrong.
I love to watch TV cops who enter a room and stand in the doorway! GREAT TARGET.
Find cover and announce yourself in a loud voice. If you see something which REASONABLY makes YOU think it is a weapon, you are cleared to fire.
"There is no time for cool reflection in the shadow of the upraised dagger".
Justice Hand, United States Supreme Court on use of deadly force.
There are ALWAYS experts and Monday Morning Quarterbacks who will argue BUT the test is "WHAT DID YOU THINK?" and "WAS IT REASONABLE UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES?".
You did well.
You stood up! That is the ONLY thing I can see that even comes close to being wrong.
I love to watch TV cops who enter a room and stand in the doorway! GREAT TARGET.
Find cover and announce yourself in a loud voice. If you see something which REASONABLY makes YOU think it is a weapon, you are cleared to fire.
"There is no time for cool reflection in the shadow of the upraised dagger".
Justice Hand, United States Supreme Court on use of deadly force.
There are ALWAYS experts and Monday Morning Quarterbacks who will argue BUT the test is "WHAT DID YOU THINK?" and "WAS IT REASONABLE UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES?".
You did well.
ch47gunner
New member
There is/was a deadbolt on the door - when he kicked the door (solid core steel), the deadbolt tore out the door frame. This was part of the damage his mother paid for.
I agree on the part of calling 911 - during the break-in and not after the fact. Coming out of a sound sleep, all seemed to happen pretty fast.
This is California - I'm very aware of the laws pertaining to home break-ins.
Training - no LEO experience but am a Viet Nam vet (combat vet, not REMF) and have been on the wrong side of a gun before and on the right side many times. Altho 35 years ago, I hope that experience helped keep me fairly level headed.
Irresponsible posts - not actions. I firmly believe many of these posts are from wannabee's who desire nothing more than to prove they "can", and are anxiously looking forward to the moment they have an opportunity to pull a trigger. These people are dangerous - to all of us. I've seen many "talkers" who couldn't stand in the door of my helicopter (wearing only a chicken plate for protection) and dish it out.
Thanks for your responses - I really appreciate them. I'm still confused about this situation and I know I could have handled it better. And I believe some of the comments pertaining to better protecting my family are appropriate. That's why I'm asking "What would you have done?" Constructive critisizm is a good thing.
I agree on the part of calling 911 - during the break-in and not after the fact. Coming out of a sound sleep, all seemed to happen pretty fast.
This is California - I'm very aware of the laws pertaining to home break-ins.
Training - no LEO experience but am a Viet Nam vet (combat vet, not REMF) and have been on the wrong side of a gun before and on the right side many times. Altho 35 years ago, I hope that experience helped keep me fairly level headed.
Irresponsible posts - not actions. I firmly believe many of these posts are from wannabee's who desire nothing more than to prove they "can", and are anxiously looking forward to the moment they have an opportunity to pull a trigger. These people are dangerous - to all of us. I've seen many "talkers" who couldn't stand in the door of my helicopter (wearing only a chicken plate for protection) and dish it out.
Thanks for your responses - I really appreciate them. I'm still confused about this situation and I know I could have handled it better. And I believe some of the comments pertaining to better protecting my family are appropriate. That's why I'm asking "What would you have done?" Constructive critisizm is a good thing.
Jeez CH47gunner, that was close. If you had fired on him you would have been completely justified.
People are going to call me bad names but here is my opinion. I would have fired. This was a VIOLENT FORCED ENTRY. No climbing through windows, openning an unlocked door or other questionable entry modes. He blew the door off its hinges into the opposing wall and advanced on the sleeping area.
It is good for the kid that you did not shoot him. You certainly are happier for it. I just happen to believe that the odds of an entry that blows the door off its hinges being a harmless drunk are VERY LOW on the scale of probablility compared to someone who means real harm. Drunk people can be violent too and taking down your front door is a good indicator of that.
People win the lottery, that doesn't mean we should depend on it coverring our mortgage. When someone shows that level of violence enterring a home the odds of your life being in real danger are much greater than it being some drunk kid openning the wrong unlocked door. I am not going to give him the split second he may need to kil me and make his way to the rest of my family. I am firing directly into COM with 12 gage 00.
In your particular case I would have killed a stupid kid and would feel real bad about it. Logically though it is the coorect decision to make as I see it based on the information present.
Big thumbs up on the posts opinting out that one should be calling 911 while the other is defending the house. My wife and I have the same understanding. A good dog is also a big bonus here to buy you time.
People are going to call me bad names but here is my opinion. I would have fired. This was a VIOLENT FORCED ENTRY. No climbing through windows, openning an unlocked door or other questionable entry modes. He blew the door off its hinges into the opposing wall and advanced on the sleeping area.
It is good for the kid that you did not shoot him. You certainly are happier for it. I just happen to believe that the odds of an entry that blows the door off its hinges being a harmless drunk are VERY LOW on the scale of probablility compared to someone who means real harm. Drunk people can be violent too and taking down your front door is a good indicator of that.
People win the lottery, that doesn't mean we should depend on it coverring our mortgage. When someone shows that level of violence enterring a home the odds of your life being in real danger are much greater than it being some drunk kid openning the wrong unlocked door. I am not going to give him the split second he may need to kil me and make his way to the rest of my family. I am firing directly into COM with 12 gage 00.
In your particular case I would have killed a stupid kid and would feel real bad about it. Logically though it is the coorect decision to make as I see it based on the information present.
Big thumbs up on the posts opinting out that one should be calling 911 while the other is defending the house. My wife and I have the same understanding. A good dog is also a big bonus here to buy you time.
Johannes_Paulsen
New member
This really depends on the laws of your state, and how things appear to any putative judge/jury. If your state does not have a Castle Doctrine law (Pennsylvania does not, I don't know about Cali,) he could really have been in a world of legal hurt if he'd fired and killed the guy.
(Disclaimer: This is not legal advice; if you desire such advice, hire and consult with your own attorney.)
At least in Florida, shooting the kid would have been legal. I also wouldn't put any blame on you if you had shot the kid.
Anyways I agree about the flashlight comments. Lighting him up and yelling "Stop or a will shoot" would likely stop situations like that because the kid even in his drunken stupor would have realized perhaps he has the wrong house.
Of course when you light the guy up and see he has a weapon or is reaching for a weapon I would open fire without saying a word.
Anyways I agree about the flashlight comments. Lighting him up and yelling "Stop or a will shoot" would likely stop situations like that because the kid even in his drunken stupor would have realized perhaps he has the wrong house.
Of course when you light the guy up and see he has a weapon or is reaching for a weapon I would open fire without saying a word.
The intruder posed no real threat to the armed occupant of the house.
Why would somebody shoot him - even if it's legal in Florida? Out of fear or panic? It is no fun to see a man die.
ch47gunner,
you reacted in the right way. This experience will just remind you of the necessity to be prepared, to have a plan.
Why would somebody shoot him - even if it's legal in Florida? Out of fear or panic? It is no fun to see a man die.
ch47gunner,
you reacted in the right way. This experience will just remind you of the necessity to be prepared, to have a plan.
Easy to realize that after the fact, but during the event... maybe not.
Now don't misunderstand me, I'm all for a reasoned approach and I'm really glad nobody got hurt here, but when somebody BUSTS DOWN YOUR FRONT DOOR at 3am I think it's pretty reasonable to assume they mean trouble.