Double Naught Spy
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Is it? Is that why troops are complaining that their M4s aren't effective at the long ranges they have to be shooting them?
What Would the Army’s Dream Rifle Mean for Tactics?
- Thread starter Bartholomew Roberts
- Start date
Is it? Is that why troops are complaining that their M4s aren't effective at the long ranges they have to be shooting them?
The Chinese PLA has been using a bullpup design since 1997. The original QBZ-95 fired the Chinese specific 5.8mm cartridge. It's ballistics were similar to the 5.56 and the 5.8 appears to be more squat, almost "fat" if you will. The reasoning behind this was that troops can carry more ammo in a battle load.
The upgraded QBZ-95s that were issued after 2004 and the QBZ-03 (non-bullpup) were built in both 5.56 and 7.62x39 calibers. I have seen on the CCTV documentaries that the QBZ-03 even has an interchangeable upper that can be swapped from 7.62x39 to 5.56 with just a few turns of a knob. No tools required. The PLA has fought it's own War on Terror for quite a while now, starting with the Viet border raids to Islamic insurrectionists in Xinjiang. It seems that for the regular trooper, both calibers are used equally in urban combat and police work. Squads, within both the PLA and the Wujing (armed police) have designated marksmen equipped with modern bolt-action and semiauto 7.62x54R for dealing with threats at longer range. Unlike American and western SWAT teams, Wujing are organized by squad and fire team just like a combat troop. And they also do regular street patrols, with full kit.
Look even farther back. The .58 caliber minie balls used in the US Civil War were undeniably effective fight stoppers. I don't think anyone hit with a minie ball kept on going. The .45-70's used after the rifled musket was replaced also packed tremendous stopping power. Only problem was ammo capacity and speed of reloading in combat.
Bigger bullets always work better in conventional terms. The .58 minie only has to travel at 1200 feet/sec to slam something with the force of a sledgehammer. Smaller bullets, to compensate for their lighter mass, has to have high velocity. Incidentally we have a running thread now in the hunting forums about using tiny bullets at blistering high speed to whack whitetails with hydrostatic shock as the main lethal mechanism.
stonewall50
New member
A rephrase is in order. More conflict is in urban settings. But if you can choose between a longer or shorter rifle and everything else is equal? Hypothetically of course... shorter is better
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stonewall50
New member
Yep. I’ve heard about them. My understanding of bull pups is that they are just a bit more complicated. But I don’t see really any other way to get a longer barrel in a shorter package. I always wondered about upscaling the p90. :shrug:
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Double Naught Spy
New member
The problem there is the aspect of "hypothetically." When has there been longer and shorter rifles where everything else was equal?
In this case, not only is it not going to be equal, but the military is expecting higher performance which will introduce a lot more unequal aspects.
You're missing the obvious point about the ammo capacity and speed of reloading in combat. It wasn't the "only" problem, it wasn't a problem AT ALL.
when the other guy and you share the universal capacity (one shot) its not a problem. And when you have a breech loader, and he has a muzzle loader, not only do you have a blazing reloads speed advantage, you also have the huge tactical advantage of being able to reload while lying down!!
When your tech is cutting edge (and it works,
) its always an advantage. When the other guys tech surpasses yours, THEN its a problem, but not until then.stonewall50
New member
Oh absolutely. My main thought was in that if you could squeeze the same performance and reliability out of a Bull pup. OFor the same overall length you get a longer barrel
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The downsides to a bullpup are balance, the long trigger linkage, and having the action close to your face.
As far as I can tell, the original bullpups were bolt action varmint rifles, where one either got a handy short rifle with a full length barrel or made a near regular length bullpup rifle with an extra long barrel for added velocity.
Trigger pulls were normally not as good as was achievable with conventional bolt guns, due to the linkage involved. Still good enough for hunting, when done well though.
The bullpup concept doesn't work quite as well for a combat rifle, while the short overall length with a standard length barrel is a huge plus, with a semi/select fire combat weapon, there are drawbacks. Do they overcome the advantages? some say yes, some no.
Short is handy is so many ways, but with the bulk of the mass not being "between the hands" some find it awkward. The answer to this is, of course, training. Personally since I'm well past the point of combat, don't do houseclearing, don't climb in and out of APCs all day, I'll stick with my full size M1A for a "service" rifle.
Plus, while I don't expect my rifle to "ka boom" for me its a little comforting to know that should disaster happen, its going to happen a few inches in front of my face, and not pressed against my right cheek!
As far as I can tell, the original bullpups were bolt action varmint rifles, where one either got a handy short rifle with a full length barrel or made a near regular length bullpup rifle with an extra long barrel for added velocity.
Trigger pulls were normally not as good as was achievable with conventional bolt guns, due to the linkage involved. Still good enough for hunting, when done well though.
The bullpup concept doesn't work quite as well for a combat rifle, while the short overall length with a standard length barrel is a huge plus, with a semi/select fire combat weapon, there are drawbacks. Do they overcome the advantages? some say yes, some no.
Short is handy is so many ways, but with the bulk of the mass not being "between the hands" some find it awkward. The answer to this is, of course, training. Personally since I'm well past the point of combat, don't do houseclearing, don't climb in and out of APCs all day, I'll stick with my full size M1A for a "service" rifle.
Plus, while I don't expect my rifle to "ka boom" for me its a little comforting to know that should disaster happen, its going to happen a few inches in front of my face, and not pressed against my right cheek!
dakota.potts
New member
Seems to me that the idea of a rifle is going to have to be re-thought to meet those requirements.
125 grains at 3500 FPS is remarkable, especially in a 16" barrel. By comparison, a full rifle length 7mm rem mag shoots 139 gr bullet around 3200 FPS.
Even if they could get what they wanted, how many people would even be able to shoot a whole magazine through an infantry weight rifle before the recoil became excessive?
I believe we will have to advance our chemical composition of propellants before anything like this is a reality. That means advancements in metallurgy and engineering to handle the pressures involved.
And how we deal with the recoil and keep the whole thing in a cartridge that isn't the size of a belted magnum is another issue.
125 grains at 3500 FPS is remarkable, especially in a 16" barrel. By comparison, a full rifle length 7mm rem mag shoots 139 gr bullet around 3200 FPS.
Even if they could get what they wanted, how many people would even be able to shoot a whole magazine through an infantry weight rifle before the recoil became excessive?
I believe we will have to advance our chemical composition of propellants before anything like this is a reality. That means advancements in metallurgy and engineering to handle the pressures involved.
And how we deal with the recoil and keep the whole thing in a cartridge that isn't the size of a belted magnum is another issue.
Polymer.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
Anybody want to volunteer to test a bullpup in a cartridge with probably 80-100k psi chamber pressures?
Double Naught Spy
New member
Sure. You just need to have the appropriate thickness barrel to go with it is all. Of course, that is going to add weight, or maybe they are using some sort of new barrel material to go with the new cartridge? After all, how is it going to retain accuracy so well as well.
So many new things. No doubt there are going to be significant hurdles and setbacks in development.
So many new things. No doubt there are going to be significant hurdles and setbacks in development.