I saw a rifle that piqued my interest the other day - nice rifle, good stock, nice bluing. But, it had been reamed to .35 Brown Whelen. Can someone give me a ballpark price on what it should cost to remove that barrel and set it back enough to be able to recut the shoulders back to the original .35 Whelen?
What would it cost to "unwildcat" a barrel?
- Thread starter Doyle
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FrankenMauser
New member
Most 'smiths will come in somewhere between $120-200, assuming there's enough meat left to set it back and the rifle design isn't difficult to work with.
If the shank is too short, you'll have to add the cost of a new barrel (and anything associated with readying it for use in that action and stock).
If the shank is too short, you'll have to add the cost of a new barrel (and anything associated with readying it for use in that action and stock).
The 35 Brown Whelen is similar to a 35 Whelen, but has less body taper and the shoulder blown forward about .050". So, do a chamber cast and measure and compare to the standard 35 Whelen. My guess is that since it has less body taper, it will be larger than the 35 Whelen at any point along its case body, so you could not just set the barrel back without cutting about 2" or so off the barrel shank (which you might not be able to do and still have enough shank to thread and screw into the action). You might just have to start out with a new barrel.
Thanks Scorch. My hope would have been to get into a good looking bolt-action .35 Whelen at a lower price than what comparable Whelen's go for. If I have to consider rebarreling, then that idea kind of goes out the window. I was hoping I would be able to get by with just a simple setback/recut.
FrankenMauser
New member
The cost of custom dies would probably run about the same as a rebarrel.
...Something to consider.
...Something to consider.
Gary, insert wouldn't do it for me. I've got a .35 Whelen in an Encore platform. I wouldn't mind having one in a bolt-action platform also but the price for those is normally far more than I can justfiy. I just happened to see this one in .35 Brown Whelen and it looked beautiful - but putting much more money into it over and above the purchase price wouldn't make it any more attractive than an existing .35 Whelen. I'm going to pass on that one and just keep watching for a true bargain.
The Brown is slightly bigger than the Whelen except in case length. That'd be 2.484" for the latter and 2.450" for the former. There might be enough metal to just ream the new chamber. Depends on the rifle.
There's a Brown Whelen cartridge drawing here. Note there are measurements taken at different places. Open 2 tabs.
https://loaddata.com/Cartridge/35-Brown-Whelen/399
And the Whelen drawing is here.
https://loaddata.com/Cartridge/35-Whelen/158
"...insert wouldn't do it..." An insert won't do it for anybody. They have a tendency to come out without notice upon extraction.
There's a Brown Whelen cartridge drawing here. Note there are measurements taken at different places. Open 2 tabs.
https://loaddata.com/Cartridge/35-Brown-Whelen/399
And the Whelen drawing is here.
https://loaddata.com/Cartridge/35-Whelen/158
"...insert wouldn't do it..." An insert won't do it for anybody. They have a tendency to come out without notice upon extraction.
And then? Examples are given like the 30/06 chamber with an insert and the work done by the NAVY. It is about all a M1 Grand can do when closing the bolt on a 308W case when fired in a 30/06 chamber without an Insert.
Dick Culver did a very fine article that covered his trip to the firing range. He had an M1 Grand and the person issuing ammo thought he had a 308W chamber (or what ever). When he finished firing he noticed the last case ejected did not have a neck and only a hint of a shoulder.
After that someone started a silly saying about the firing pin driving the case forward until the shoulder of the case collides with the shoulder of the chamber; and I always ask, "How can that be?".
Because
, if the case was driven forward the case would have been ejected with the neck and shoulder of 308W case.F. Guffey
Very good, it is just something I do, I form cases. There is nothing I can do about cases shortening .035" to .045" when going from 30/06 to 338/06 and going from 30/06 to 35 Whelen.
And then there should be the question as to why? I measure before and again after; and I have found I am the only case former in the world that has necks that shorten when necked up, And
I am beginning to believe I am the only reloaders that can not move the shoulder back when sizing.F. Guffey
That would only be true if the case remained stationary in the chamber until pressure had dropped below the point where it could reshape the brass.
If it were pushed back against the breechface while the pressure was still high enough to form the brass to the chamber then it could have been forward at the moment of firing and still have reshaped to fit the chamber with the case against the breech.
Until? The 308W case head spaced on the case body/shoulder juncture because the chamber was too small in diameter to allow the case to be driven forward. And then? The case formed to the chamber.
Again; if the reloader understands where the case is in the chamber he could understand what happens to the case when fired. I understand it is a mind boggling thing but I have cases that are ejected with shorter neck and I eject cases that have increased in length between the shoulder of the shoulder of the chamber to the case head.
reloaders that apply the old saying about the firing pin drives the case forward until the shoulder of the case contacts the shoulder of the chamber none of this applies. Understand, my cases do not have head space.
F. Guffey
Again; for the 5++ time; I went to the firing range with 2 of my 8MM06 rifles. I chambered my 8MM57 ammo into my 8MM06 chambers and then pulled the trigger.
I have to begin to believe reloaders have trouble keeping up; because? There is .127" clearance between the shoulder of the 8MM57 case and the shoulder of the 8MM/06 chamber. There is no interference fit between the case and chamber and the firing pin did not shorten the case between the shoulder of the case and case head and the case did not take off for the front of the chamber.
When I ejected the cases the case increased in length between the shoulder of the case and case head. Proof! The shoulder of my cases did not move, my shoulders became part of the case body. The cases were ejected with a hint of a neck. One more time: Had the case been driven forward until the shoulder of the case contacted the shoulder of the chamber the length the neck would not have changed "MUCH!".
And the part that reloaders do not understand: If the case had been driven forward and the case did lock on to the chamber the case head would have had no choice but to be driven to the rear. And then there is that part that is not up in the front of anyone's mind. The case will not stretch .127" between the case head and case body, because of this the case had no choice but to suffer case head separation.
Unless the reloader is a slide and glide shooter, they grease everything, the case, chamber and bullet. Now we are back to the case head being against the bolt face and the case being ejected with just a hint of a neck and a shoulder that was formed when fired.
And no, the shoulder did not move forward, the new shoulder did not exist when the trigger was pulled and the old shoulder became part of the case body..
F. Guffey
I have to begin to believe reloaders have trouble keeping up; because? There is .127" clearance between the shoulder of the 8MM57 case and the shoulder of the 8MM/06 chamber. There is no interference fit between the case and chamber and the firing pin did not shorten the case between the shoulder of the case and case head and the case did not take off for the front of the chamber.
When I ejected the cases the case increased in length between the shoulder of the case and case head. Proof! The shoulder of my cases did not move, my shoulders became part of the case body. The cases were ejected with a hint of a neck. One more time: Had the case been driven forward until the shoulder of the case contacted the shoulder of the chamber the length the neck would not have changed "MUCH!".
And the part that reloaders do not understand: If the case had been driven forward and the case did lock on to the chamber the case head would have had no choice but to be driven to the rear. And then there is that part that is not up in the front of anyone's mind. The case will not stretch .127" between the case head and case body, because of this the case had no choice but to suffer case head separation.
Unless the reloader is a slide and glide shooter, they grease everything, the case, chamber and bullet. Now we are back to the case head being against the bolt face and the case being ejected with just a hint of a neck and a shoulder that was formed when fired.
And no, the shoulder did not move forward, the new shoulder did not exist when the trigger was pulled and the old shoulder became part of the case body..
F. Guffey
I'm not quite following you.
You asked how a .308 cartridge could be driven forward and still eject with "neck and only a hint of a shoulder". I gave one explanation of how that could happen.
Are you now saying that a .308 round in a .30-06 chamber can't move forward enough to get the cartridge head away from the breechface at all?
When you put a chamber insert into a 30-06 chamber you have to cut a 308 chamber into the barrel to properly size the chamber/insert. If the chamber insert comes out/is removed, the chamber will have a shoulder where the 308 shoulder is, then the 30-06 shoulder will be farther forward. 308 is wider than a 30-06 at every point between the base and shoulder, it would be VERY difficult to close the bolt on on a 308 in a 30-06 chamber. Not that it couldn't be done, just that it would require come serious effort. A customer of mine stuck a 243 cartridge in a 30-06 chamber and tried really hard to close the bolt on it. It was challenging to get it out.
Different beast. Case dimensions on a 8X57 is a lot closer to a 30-06 than a 308 is.
Back to the original question,and Unclenicks suggestion to make dedicated Brown-Whelen brass as an option.
I have a fair amount of experience with the Cream of Wheat and Bullseye (No bullet) method of case forming.
I even figured out to make chamber inserts for a 12 Ga single shot using my chamber reamer.
During my BPCR experimentation days,before we had the Hornady .405 WCF brass, I made a 40-70 Sharps Straight chamber reamer.
At that time,30-40 Krag brass and 303 brit brass were easy to find.I had great success blowing it out to 40-70,very much like .405 WCF brass,or basic cylindrical brass,for a mental picture.I only had good luck with virgin brass.Once fired splt mostly.
35 Whelen: I built one long ago. I never bough forming dies.I started with the idea of just forcing the 35 expander through 30-06 brass.I sort of got brass I could use...but.. It was not good.
A case neck always has a weaker or softer side.Thats where it will stretch. It does not stretch unifowmly around the neck diameter.You get a thin side on the neck. Worse,the flexible spindle would deflect.End resuly,eccentric necks and shoulders. Not good enough.
A Gunsmith mentor taught me the Cream of Wheat method.
It makes nice concentric 35 Whelen brass. I'm pretty confident you can make nice 35 Brown Whelen brass using the COW method.
f you buy the rifle,PM me I'll tell you about it.
I have a fair amount of experience with the Cream of Wheat and Bullseye (No bullet) method of case forming.
I even figured out to make chamber inserts for a 12 Ga single shot using my chamber reamer.
During my BPCR experimentation days,before we had the Hornady .405 WCF brass, I made a 40-70 Sharps Straight chamber reamer.
At that time,30-40 Krag brass and 303 brit brass were easy to find.I had great success blowing it out to 40-70,very much like .405 WCF brass,or basic cylindrical brass,for a mental picture.I only had good luck with virgin brass.Once fired splt mostly.
35 Whelen: I built one long ago. I never bough forming dies.I started with the idea of just forcing the 35 expander through 30-06 brass.I sort of got brass I could use...but.. It was not good.
A case neck always has a weaker or softer side.Thats where it will stretch. It does not stretch unifowmly around the neck diameter.You get a thin side on the neck. Worse,the flexible spindle would deflect.End resuly,eccentric necks and shoulders. Not good enough.
A Gunsmith mentor taught me the Cream of Wheat method.
It makes nice concentric 35 Whelen brass. I'm pretty confident you can make nice 35 Brown Whelen brass using the COW method.
f you buy the rifle,PM me I'll tell you about it.
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Do you have a rifle with a 30/06 chamber?
Do you have or do you know of someone with a 308W case?
I have at least 5 30/06 rifles with 30/06 chambers and I have at least 5 30/06 barrels. And I have 3 30/06 chamber gages. I also have 30/06 case gages.
The 308 W case when full length sized is larger in diameter by at least .014" at the 308 W shoulder juncture.
The M1 Garand will chamber a 308W in the 30/06 chamber, occasionally it is necessary to help the bolt to close. Chambering a 308 W round in a 30/06 chamber is a matter of sizing the case body/shoulder juncture when closing the bolt. I have never heard of anyone hurting themselves when closing the bolt on a 308W in a 30/06 chamber.
The 30/06 chamber reamer will not clean up the 308W chamber. The case body/shoulder juncture in the chamber is at least .014" too large in diameter.
243W in a 30/06 chamber? Try a 308W in a 25/06 chamber; and then imagine what would happen when the trigger was pulled. The crowd was betting the bullet must have been 3 inches long
when the bullet left the barrel. F. Guffey
Can you imagine the case is setting still when the firing pin hits the primer?
I know, we have reloaders that claim the firing pin shortens the case from the shoulder to the case head .005" when the firing pin hits the primer. I make no claim but if it was possible I could measure the effect the firing pin strike had on the case.
And I know how difficult it is for a reloader to wrap their minds around the sequences of events between pulling the trigger and the bullet getting past the rifling. And still I am the only one that can not move the shoulder of the case back with a die that has full case body support.
F. Guffey
Mr Guffey,
Cut a 5 or 6 in long piece of 1/4 in brass rod. Stand one of your 7x57 Mausers vertical,and drop the brass rod down the muzzle,to rest on the bolt face,chamber clear(unloaded) and cocked. Muzzle still up,pull the trigger.
That piece of brass rod will exit the muzzle.
Point,striker impuse is significant.
Point two,the striker impulse occurs first,to initiate primer ignition.
Unless you super glue your brass to the bolt face,what supernatural force holds the case head tight to the bolt face,assuming there is some(even .002) head clearance?
So,as designed,the chamber shoulder will act as an anvil to limit the cartrides forward reaction to the striker impact.
Primer fires! Primer will back out to the bolt face,pressure in the primer pocket will hold the cartridge forward in the chamber
Pressure builds,case head returns to bolt face.
It will probably help you understand,Mr Guffey,if you watch the little cartoons from Varmint Al's web page Finite Element Analysis on the effects of chamber surface finish.
It must feel lonely,being the Only Reloader Who Knows.
Maybe with Varmint Al's animations,you can learn something. Then you won't have to be The Lonely Only Reloader anymore.
Doesn't that sound nice?
http://www.varmintal.com/a243z.htm
Cut a 5 or 6 in long piece of 1/4 in brass rod. Stand one of your 7x57 Mausers vertical,and drop the brass rod down the muzzle,to rest on the bolt face,chamber clear(unloaded) and cocked. Muzzle still up,pull the trigger.
That piece of brass rod will exit the muzzle.
Point,striker impuse is significant.
Point two,the striker impulse occurs first,to initiate primer ignition.
Unless you super glue your brass to the bolt face,what supernatural force holds the case head tight to the bolt face,assuming there is some(even .002) head clearance?
So,as designed,the chamber shoulder will act as an anvil to limit the cartrides forward reaction to the striker impact.
Primer fires! Primer will back out to the bolt face,pressure in the primer pocket will hold the cartridge forward in the chamber
Pressure builds,case head returns to bolt face.
It will probably help you understand,Mr Guffey,if you watch the little cartoons from Varmint Al's web page Finite Element Analysis on the effects of chamber surface finish.
It must feel lonely,being the Only Reloader Who Knows.
Maybe with Varmint Al's animations,you can learn something. Then you won't have to be The Lonely Only Reloader anymore.
Doesn't that sound nice?
http://www.varmintal.com/a243z.htm