Sum1_Special
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yes but i could have been. 
what would happen if.....
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Handy,
I did not analyze, praise, or condemn the gist of the posts in this thread, but I was disappointed by JammerSix's rebuttal.
I know that JammerSix is articulate enough to argue pursuasively against offensive suggestions through reasoning and force of logic and without loosely using disparaging words. All I did was point out that JammerSix had been casual in his use of the word bigotry. If precise, rich, and evocative words such as bigotry and racism are used too casually, they will lose their power and meaning.
I did not analyze, praise, or condemn the gist of the posts in this thread, but I was disappointed by JammerSix's rebuttal.
I know that JammerSix is articulate enough to argue pursuasively against offensive suggestions through reasoning and force of logic and without loosely using disparaging words. All I did was point out that JammerSix had been casual in his use of the word bigotry. If precise, rich, and evocative words such as bigotry and racism are used too casually, they will lose their power and meaning.
I thought his post did an excellent job of cutting through the polite dancing that was going around the subject.
The subject was insulting, and designed to be that way. Sometimes a spade is a spade, and politely the discussing the "hand powered dirt division and relocation tool" allows us to ignore what we're really discussing.
So I'll be direct, too. No. I do not think that Mexicans are lazy, unmotivated people that would destroy any opportunity available to them. I think it is insulting to suggest the same. Clear enough?
The subject was insulting, and designed to be that way. Sometimes a spade is a spade, and politely the discussing the "hand powered dirt division and relocation tool" allows us to ignore what we're really discussing.
So I'll be direct, too. No. I do not think that Mexicans are lazy, unmotivated people that would destroy any opportunity available to them. I think it is insulting to suggest the same. Clear enough?
Mexicans, at least those who come to the US, are generally hard-working, family-oriented people.
Mexico has an interesting, if unfortunate, history. From the conquistadors forward, Mexico has been ruled by an elite, while the masses have been kept in slavery or physical or economic serfdom. Whatever the nominal political system, the effective political system has been near-feudal in nature. Graft and corruption abound because the instruments of state are allowed (or implicity expected) to abuse the peasantry as long as the overlord gets his due.
Except in the ruling class, nonconformity has been systematically rooted out for centuries. With that backdrop, I am amazed at the sheer number of high-spirited, ambitious individualists that Mexico still produces.
Has opportunity been wasted in Mexico? Certainly. The country has been saddled with a socio-political structure that guaranteed it would not rise to its full potential. Unfortunately, prospects are not great for significant improvement in the near future.
Would things have been different if Cortez had landed at Plymouth Rock and the Pilgrims had landed in Veracruz? You bet. But free yeomen would probably still have made the most of their opportunities. And feudal overlords would still have exploited the peasantry.
Would the US continue to be the powerhouse it is if all Americans and Mexicans miraculously switched countries in the blink of an eye? Hardly. The same structural and institutional problems that plague Mexico would be transported with the people. Individuals can change course fairly easily, but it very difficult for a people (nation) to do so.
Today's Mexican immigrants, whether legal or illegal, are only trying to do what many of our American ancestors did - escape from a country with a disfunctional political and economic system to a country with more opportunity.
There. While this post is not meant to be insulting, I suspect it will probably set off half of the readers on either side of the discussion. So be it. Just tell me in a rational way how I am wrong.
Mexico has an interesting, if unfortunate, history. From the conquistadors forward, Mexico has been ruled by an elite, while the masses have been kept in slavery or physical or economic serfdom. Whatever the nominal political system, the effective political system has been near-feudal in nature. Graft and corruption abound because the instruments of state are allowed (or implicity expected) to abuse the peasantry as long as the overlord gets his due.
Except in the ruling class, nonconformity has been systematically rooted out for centuries. With that backdrop, I am amazed at the sheer number of high-spirited, ambitious individualists that Mexico still produces.
Has opportunity been wasted in Mexico? Certainly. The country has been saddled with a socio-political structure that guaranteed it would not rise to its full potential. Unfortunately, prospects are not great for significant improvement in the near future.
Would things have been different if Cortez had landed at Plymouth Rock and the Pilgrims had landed in Veracruz? You bet. But free yeomen would probably still have made the most of their opportunities. And feudal overlords would still have exploited the peasantry.
Would the US continue to be the powerhouse it is if all Americans and Mexicans miraculously switched countries in the blink of an eye? Hardly. The same structural and institutional problems that plague Mexico would be transported with the people. Individuals can change course fairly easily, but it very difficult for a people (nation) to do so.
Today's Mexican immigrants, whether legal or illegal, are only trying to do what many of our American ancestors did - escape from a country with a disfunctional political and economic system to a country with more opportunity.
There. While this post is not meant to be insulting, I suspect it will probably set off half of the readers on either side of the discussion. So be it. Just tell me in a rational way how I am wrong.
novus collectus
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gc70, In other words nurture instead of nature? I agree that this is not about the people's capabilities as human beings because, they are just as good as us and we are all the same humans. Just by mentioning that they have less education because it was not provided to them, or a different work ethic (not referring to laziness in the slightest, but the more complex structure), or a different view of patriotism or nationalism, does not automatically mean that the discussion is about race.
As individuals are they lazy, of course not. As a peoples, no. If they had they same structure social structure and attitudes (learned from being exploited mostly), and the same general education they do now, then they would quite possibly run this country to the ground if positions changed. Now, if let us say that every one of those people grew up here from childhood as Americans, then they would be the same Americans that would go to Mexico and build it up to a great nation. If we were to talk about another specific generation of Mexicans from history, then They may even make this country great if we changed places. I may be xenophobic to some degree, but it is not racism that motivates my thoughts because I know that it has nothing at all to do with genetics one bit. But the current social/economic/legal/political structures as they are now, leads me to believe that currently they simply do no know how to run their own country and they would run this one to ruin as well.
Talking about a peoples' ability to run a country, then citing a corrupt and elitist government as proof is simply illogical.
Given his usual rhetoric about immigrants, Snoopy was definitely NOT talking about switching goverments, but switching citizens. The Mexican government ALONE would ruin the US, even with the same US citizens in place. The citizens of Mexico don't go out and vote for corruption, but it is endemic to their government as a gift from Spanish and French colonialism.
The average Mexican immigrant seems to have more work ethic than the average US citizen, from what I've seen.
Ohio Annie
New member
I agree with handy, the land is no way comparable in terms of resources, especially for farming.
I love the fact that people think the majority of the mexicans that illegally enter the country, are "good hard-working people"...
This comment is usually made by people who are not geographically blessed as to be able to see what is actually flooding into the country - FIRST HAND.
While I fit into this group as well, relatives and friends have a different story about what the majority of the illegals are up to, and it's not good. Drugs, and crime, people. This is their first hand knowledge - and I believe they're correct.
I'm sure there are a number of illegals that cross our border for what would appear to be "honorable" reasons (i.e. last resort to feed family...etc), so don't flame me thinking I'm stating ALL illegals are horrible, drug smuggling murderers.
This comment is usually made by people who are not geographically blessed as to be able to see what is actually flooding into the country - FIRST HAND.
While I fit into this group as well, relatives and friends have a different story about what the majority of the illegals are up to, and it's not good. Drugs, and crime, people. This is their first hand knowledge - and I believe they're correct.
I'm sure there are a number of illegals that cross our border for what would appear to be "honorable" reasons (i.e. last resort to feed family...etc), so don't flame me thinking I'm stating ALL illegals are horrible, drug smuggling murderers.
Here ya go.Handy said:
Handy said:
Hey, that's YOU Handy!
This one is about "Mexicans" - but we all know the overwhelming majority of Mexicans on this country are here ILLEGALLY - so this fits the "illegal immigrant" nuance.gc70 said:
Yet another illegal immigrant comment.gc70 said:
Puhleez. If anything MY post was on topic, you all are going the "racist" and "bigot" route. Do me a favor: Just because you may not agree with me, at least have the decency to refrain from such a silly accusation – when the very thing that you feel doesn’t exist in this thread, I was easily able to bring forth in the aforementioned quotes.Handy said:
The original post was obviously directed towards the US/Mexican border, and how Mexican citizens are running across as if they have a green card - and comparing a "what if" scenario of we swapped homelands.
It had nothing to do with bigotry. But that seems to be the only defense for people with an apposing view: to accuse people who disagree with illegal immigration of attacking a minority group by being racist or bigots. That's BS. It's got to do with people not respecting our borders – and with that, I do have a problem.
Huh? The continuing existence of a corrupt and elitist government in Mexico is proof that the Mexican people (collectively) can't run a country well. If they could run a country well, don't you think they would replace their government and eliminate corruption? Or do you think they keep a corrupt and elitist government for laughs and giggles?
The citizens of Mexico are burdened by their contry's history and have not learned how to effectively fight corruption through the processes of democratic government. As a result, when they go to the polls they often do vote for corruption. That's not a slam against Mexicans - the same situation is altogether too frequent in the US, and we've had more experience with running a country through representative democracy than any other nation in the world.
There are a LOT of Mexican immigrants (almost certainly both legal and illegal) in North Carolina and the vast majority of them are good, hard-working people. I suspect that the border areas have a substantially higher concentration of the criminal element. Just consider the coyotes, who are professional criminals; how many people just looking for work will a single coyote move across the border in a single year?
No flame intended Trip20
I was supporting your point that perceptions of the goodness/badness of Mexicans coming across the border are probably influenced by where the observer is located. As I said, people close to the border probably do see a lot of the "bad" Mexicans - the coyotes, drug smugglers, etc. Further from the border, and the criminality associated with illegal border-crossing, people probably encounter "good" Mexicans more often than "bad" ones.
I was supporting your point that perceptions of the goodness/badness of Mexicans coming across the border are probably influenced by where the observer is located. As I said, people close to the border probably do see a lot of the "bad" Mexicans - the coyotes, drug smugglers, etc. Further from the border, and the criminality associated with illegal border-crossing, people probably encounter "good" Mexicans more often than "bad" ones.
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