What would a parent do?

R

RickG30

New member
OK, we all know now that a quick confrontation by the police to the bad guys is not going to a sure thing. And now the bad guys know it, too. What are you going to do if you daughter calls on her cell phone from her school and tells you something like the Littleton shooting has happened? She says she is bleeding badly and the gunshots are getting closer and she hears screams. You are close by and when you get to the school the police are just arriving. Impressed and hopeful you watch them help students out of the building. But then they withdraw. Nothing is happening and your daughter is hysterical now saying the shooting is much closer. You advise the on scene commander and he says assesments are being made. You wait for a whole hour and nothing is happening except for gunshots from the school. You think your daughter has passed out. WHAT WILL YOU DO? You know fron Littleton that the police there waited several hours before engaging the gunmen. Do run in yourself? Will you get shot by the police on the way in? Will you make matters worse? Will you just pray? Could you live with yourself if your daughter or several of her friends bled to death?

This was a well planned out attack. What will future terrorists do with the extra time they will percieve to have? Sorry for the length. I just hope we all never have to face sometning like this.
Rick
 
I thought about that myself while it was going on. The truth is that it is highly unlikely that any parent could've gotten close to the building.

Even as an LEO, it is unlikely that I would've been able to get into the building..

However, if I could, I would. I would not be able to live with myself if I had just sat outside.
 
My daughters are out of school so, hopefully with your permission (it is YOUR thread!), I will suppose the scene is the office building where they work.

I don't believe the SWAT teams would hold back any more there than they did in Littleton. In the San Antonio area, SWAT teams have held back only in a hostage situation. I believe there were two situations where there were two or more perps in an active shooting environment and SWAT put a quick and direct stop to it!

However, in your scenario I see several, mutually exclusive possibilities:

1) I would try to get to my daughter. I would be caught and restrained by the police, needlessly wasting precious LEO resources and getting myself beaten up by the police while trying to fight them off.

2) I would actually gain entrance to the building. There I would try to save my daughter doing whatever it took to stop and/or neutralize any threats to her and to me. In so doing, I would:
- complicate SWATs problems,
- increase the risk of the perp(s) causing more problems,
- and save or not save my daughter.
Whether or not I saved my daughter and others, I would be considered reckless, charged with disobeying police orders (whatever the correct wording is), be called a hero by a few and a dangerous idiot by the majority.

3) I would be upset (gentle but inadequate term) but do what the police told me to do.
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By the way, every member of my family knows what to do if someone is holding a gun to their head and an armed rescuer arrives to help them. How would you or the members of your family react in that situation? Ummm, maybe that's left to another thread, on a different forum, addressed by real professionals (Mr. Humphries?)
 
One other question. In a hostage situation, aren't most negotiation technigues and further assessments terminated when shots are fired and deaths are believed to be occuring? Isn't that usually an all out GO signal?

What a mess. I'm glad I wasn't there and I feel for the front line guys. I'm sure they wanted to go in as bad as anybody.
Rick
 
This may sound just Bravado - But I dont think I could have stopped myself from going in - I dont think the Swat Team could have stopped me either - unless they wanted to chase me into the building...

I have had the training, I have had the experience... I know what they are thinking - And I am sure, even if they were ordered to stop me - they would not want to. Swat Officers are people too - husbands and fathers. They would want to run in too.

Nothing short of a Pig Pile Tackle would stop me. And Of course I would have one of my guns with me. .380 Walther, or .40 HK USP. Wether I used it or not would depend on weather or not I saw a BG. Cross that bridge if I got to it.

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SICK AND TIRED OF...
 
I watched some of the press conference from Littleton. The SWAT group "standing around" was a second or third such group to arrive. There was already a SWAT Team inside, and for safety, the higher-ups did not want unknown folks meeting strangers in a confused situation inside the building.

Also, I read that a Sheriff's deputy inside the school from before the shooting started did return some fire.

It will be a while before "They", much less we, have a time-line of all the facts.

Regards, Art

[This message has been edited by Art Eatman (edited April 24, 1999).]
 
Remember that the son of the senior SWAT officer is a student and was present in school. This officer was also first team in the library. Only hours later did he see his son, who (son) was with girlfriend and she was wounded
My point: he adhered to his training and did whatever was proper for the situation. Man, what he must have been feeling!!
 
Like most of you , I'd have to try to go in. Common sense tells me this would be a really stupid move, but parental instincts would be in charge. No doubt, I wouldn't get anywhere near the door before police grabbed me and probably handcuffed me to some immobile object, therefore neutralizing this insane parent. The hard truth is there would only be three things I could do. Panic, pray and cry.
 
Damn. You can't win with a scenario like that. All one can do is sit and try to relax...

while secretly setting up that sniper scope. ;)
 
This I have to reply. I know it would be nearly impossible to ask this, but whatever happens, don't try to play Rambo. Come on guys, you know as well as I do, perhaps better, that such a situation requires SWAT.. several units of them, not a lone, loose cannon.
 
My guess is I'd set up at the perimeter with a scoped rifle and half-dozen friends to keep SWAT/other LEOs from assuming I was a BG.

Think back to Cherles Whitman shooting up a campus in the 1970s...that is precisely what happed, locals kept his head down till police snipers arrived to replace local cops.

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Cornered Rat
ddb.com/RKBA Updated March 20
"Disarm, then past the barbed wire, into the oven and out of the smoke-stack..."


[This message has been edited by cornered rat (edited April 26, 1999).]
 
No question. I would rather die trying to save my child than to wait.I agree with Kodiac I doubt the police would stop me.They could probably use some intel from inside.
Win lose or draw I'd have to try it.

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Better days to be,

Ed
 
Dont you just love these hypotheticals? We can be the heroes of our own sagas.
Part two:You get inside and head towards the library to save your daughter. You have your favorite AP handgun and know the way to the library.
As you turn the last corner a BG jumps out with his Tec 9 to a child's head and says "Drop the gun or she dies".He is behind the child and you dont have a clear shot.

Do you drop the gun and let him shoot you,or do you shoot them both and head for the library?

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Better days to be,

Ed
 
I feel that this topic is important enough for me to reiterating my stance. In a scenario like this, DON'T get involved, no matter how tempting it is or how good the odds look. People who do that DIE. And most likely, you will also cause the death of several other innocent bystanders. The only people who survive unscathed are Hollywood actors in a fantasy film.

I really don't want to sound rude, but anyone who's trained CQC hostage scenarios knows just how difficult it is to do it as a coordinated team. And to do it alone with nothing more than your pistol is basically suicide. On top of that, you'll probably get other innocent bystanders killed in the process. Folks who actually suggest doing so, I gather, might not have had the appropriate training. Otherwise, I suspect they wouldn't have said that. Which makes it even worse if they do get involved.

I can understand about the overwhelming parental instincts. That is why, we must do our best not to let our instincts cloud our judgments. By charging in, we actually decrease their chances of survival. Gotta let hostage negotiators and SWAT a try.

$.02
 
Thank you, Ed.

For what it's worth, I disagree with the commentary. What I do agree on is to heck with political correctioness. It should not get in the way of saving lives and doing your duty. But I don't view this from a PC/CYA stand-point. In fact, it never entered my mind. Nor do I view this from a "how could you look at yourself in the mirror; live with yourself knowing you sat around with your thumb up your ass while kids are getting killed" stand-point. Only the dead and the oblivious would not realize this. I view this from, "If you don't know how many more hostiles are in there, you could get more people killed when you run in on possibly well dug-in positions, surrounded by innocent kids and teacher, all ready to be sacrificed, and all you have to do is to charge in and give them a reason to" stand-point.

Exercise clear judgement gentlemen. Sorry to be blunt, but I feel like I'm talking to a wall. I guess some will never change their minds, so I will end here.
 
I'd like to throw another scenario into this fray. Suppose LEO outside with a sniper rifle sees what he percieves to be another BG lurking about inside the building. It's obviously NOT a uniformed LEO and he has a clear shot. That could add up to a dead parent and another potential gun in the BG's hand.
 
Sharpshooters require a go-ahead from the scene commander. In theory, the scene commander, not the sharpshooters, are the most-informed individuals about the on-going situation. Therefore, they are the best people to make the call whether to shoot or not. So, no matter who it is, if the scene commander doesn't give the go-ahead, the sharpshooters don't shoot. But if they do, and assuming that the sharpshooters are positive the people they are shooting are the BGs, or if they are presenting clear and immediate danger to their team mates, they will fire upon first clear shot.

The worst nightmare for any sharpshooter is to shoot an innocent person by accident. To merely "perceive", IMHO, is not good enough to justify a shot.

(Folks, I'm allowed to say this right? Or am I saying too much? If so, I'll delete it.)
 
SB; you can say what you feel !!!! thats what makes this country great. if you didnt say what you felt you would be letting us wander around with only some of the opinions to think about. if some one is insulted they can leave, it does no one any harm. so speak up we all learn how each other feels from this. If you think im an a!@$#hole so be it but just remember we all have an opinion.
 
SB, I agree with Pat that we all have our opinions, educated or otherwise. I posed the sniper/BG scenario because I didn't know exactly what the protocol would be in that case. Thanks for clearing that up.

As a parent myself, I can't honestly say what I would or could have done. I think that they would have probably had to use a few of their resources to restrain me for the time being.

I like that these hypotheticals allow us to deepen out tactical mindset all the while allowing us to go back and review the situations.

Ron
Detroit Area Chapter
Terra Haute Torque and Recoil Society
 
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