What WONT a 12gauge with slugs or sabot kill? Bear etc?
- Thread starter EnoughGUN
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.351winchester
Moderator
Hard cast lead sabot or even full diameter, loaded hot makes for deep digging animal stoppers. I just don't think the power could ever be there for something like Elephants, Cape Buffaloes, hippos etc. I don't doubt for a second the slug described above (made by Dixie?) could kill with one shot any adult animal that walks the earth. The big 5, dangerous(?) 7 were all taken by a .44 magnum. a 12 ga just does not make the best first string QB. and in a lot of cases is not a time to gamble or comprimise with under powered firearms
Good posts. Even with proper shot placements etc. it would be foolhardy to go after the big five or similar dangerous game with a slug gun. At the end of the day when all things are considered, a slug gun, while it has some things in common with rifles, is just that - a slug gun, not a rifle. Every weapon has its limitations and intended purpose and the good shooter has to be aware of these. In addition, very large and dangerous game, as found on the African and Asian landmass, often will not give an errant hunter a second chance.
It's probably truer to say that in North and South America, with the possible exception of Kodiak Brown Bears and the American Bison, a highly competent shooter with the appropriate slug gear, should be able to score kills with his weapon [but possibly not necessarily one shot kills], except in such cases where stalking of game requires considerable distances between hunter and quarry [in excess of 90 yards at least].
Even in the old days when there were no such thngs as slug guns and when black powder was the standard, the colonial hunters in Africa and Asia never ventured forth without the large calibre double rifle.
It's probably truer to say that in North and South America, with the possible exception of Kodiak Brown Bears and the American Bison, a highly competent shooter with the appropriate slug gear, should be able to score kills with his weapon [but possibly not necessarily one shot kills], except in such cases where stalking of game requires considerable distances between hunter and quarry [in excess of 90 yards at least].
Even in the old days when there were no such thngs as slug guns and when black powder was the standard, the colonial hunters in Africa and Asia never ventured forth without the large calibre double rifle.
I postulate that the 12ga slug gun is oft-suggested for bear defense because everybody has one and they're cheap. The most bang you can get for the money. NOT because they are the most effective. Unless some radical change has occurred that I'm unaware of, most slugs have a very low sectional density and/or hardness. Most are swaged and hollow-based. Methinks that while "12ga slug" sounds "bad" to the uninitiated, somebody with a little more initiative would want something more like a Marlin Guide Gun .45/70 or .450 (for the non-reloader). That a +400gr hardcast at 1500-1800fps will FAR outpenetrate any smoothbore offering.
Inside 50 feet there is nothing that walks the earth that a 1oz 12 GA slug won't kill (although I would wonder about shot placement for elephants). As you get further away this drops off dramatically until by 200 meters you need something completely different. So it is not really suitable for hunting the big 5.
JackSparrow
Inactive
A 12ga slug will kill a bear VERY quickly (I use it myself for bear hunting). I've seen the damage these things do, a slug (or 2 in quick succession) would take down almost any animal in the world, especially with a shot to the front shoulder. A sabot through a rifled barrel would get you out to 100 yards easy, and I've seen foster style slugs through a smooth barrel drop a deer at 200 yards.
Winchester partition gold 12ga. 3" 385gr. , 2000fps muzzle ,1831 at 50yards
3419 pfe at muzzle ,2867 pfe at 50yards . Never shot them as they are exspensive , I shoot Brenneke gold 3" 1 3/8 oz. slugs in my 1300 Win. deer gun . Don't have specs. on the Brenneke's but they do kick butt .
3419 pfe at muzzle ,2867 pfe at 50yards . Never shot them as they are exspensive , I shoot Brenneke gold 3" 1 3/8 oz. slugs in my 1300 Win. deer gun . Don't have specs. on the Brenneke's but they do kick butt .
I am not so much worried bout the reality of hunting the big game with it as I am with wether it is possible to kill the larger animals with one. Like I said I am not going to try it for any amount of money but it would be interesting to know the guns ability.
It seems the verdict is the 12gauge can kill pretty much anything if the animal fairly close, you hit it right and use the right slug or sabot.
It seems the verdict is the 12gauge can kill pretty much anything if the animal fairly close, you hit it right and use the right slug or sabot.
JerseyDrez
New member
Even though it was a deer, it still shows the large wound an animal will suffer due to a slug.
I was driving home last night and as usual, a whitetail frolicks in front of my car. As it jumps over the hood of my car (exaggeration), I see a gaping wound by its upper shoulder, so I slow down, throw it in reverse and back up. The deer stops about 5 yards off the road and I position my car so my headlights shine upon it. At first glance, I thought it was some sort of bacterial infection eating away at the deer, but then I realized it was a non-fatal, bad shot from a hunters slug.
Ive seen deer shot with slugs, but this wound was massive and probably almost 2 fists big. I was shocked the deer survived with just a little limp. Yet it will most likely die soon from infection.
So there is no doubt in my mind a slug or sabot would take down a bear, mountain lion, possibly an african lion? Elephant, rhino, caper, I dont know about them...they have lots of 'armor' if you will.
I was driving home last night and as usual, a whitetail frolicks in front of my car. As it jumps over the hood of my car (exaggeration), I see a gaping wound by its upper shoulder, so I slow down, throw it in reverse and back up. The deer stops about 5 yards off the road and I position my car so my headlights shine upon it. At first glance, I thought it was some sort of bacterial infection eating away at the deer, but then I realized it was a non-fatal, bad shot from a hunters slug.
Ive seen deer shot with slugs, but this wound was massive and probably almost 2 fists big. I was shocked the deer survived with just a little limp. Yet it will most likely die soon from infection.
So there is no doubt in my mind a slug or sabot would take down a bear, mountain lion, possibly an african lion? Elephant, rhino, caper, I dont know about them...they have lots of 'armor' if you will.
All the same rules still apply. There's no magic involved just because it's a 12ga slug. A 1oz 12ga slug (~.730") is only 438gr. This is not even as heavy as a 12ga roundball, which would be roughly 550gr. That's pitiful on sectional density, about .117 or equivalent to a 173gr .458" bullet. To put things in perspective, that's lower than 110gr .357, slightly higher than a 95gr .380. Not very impressive, in addition to being very soft. Which means that my .54cal muzzleloader shooting a .535" roundball at 1850fps is likely to penetrate deeper than a 1oz Foster slug. Might make a big entrance wound but it won't penetrate much. We ain't talking about 12bore rifles here. This is one instance where I agree with Chuck Hawks.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotguns_protection_field.htm
If you wanna talk about slugs that actually do compare to a big bore rifle shooting heavy for caliber cast bullets, you have to go heavy and you have to go hard. Like these 730gr hardcast slugs from Dixie. It has a section density of .196, which is still less than a 270gr .430". To put things in perspective, a 400gr .458" bullet has a sectional density of .272.
http://www.dixieslugs.com/products.html
So how much recoil do you have to withstand shooting a 730gr 12ga slug at 1200fps to still not even come close to the penetration you get from a 400gr .45/70? Let alone a 400gr .416 or 500gr .458??? The answer is A LOT!!!
Scattergun Bob
New member
EnoughGUN
Slugs have provided several good size whitetail for my dinner table. Back in the late 1960's a well placed slug stopped a fair sized brown bear in my backyard in Priest Lake. All guns and ammo are have limits. However it's hard to carry that magic golf bag full of the guns one "might" have need of!
Truly, the scattergun IS the gun that tamed the west, it has worked against all comers, not always the best choice, but like a hammer it does a lot of jobs. Good scattergun slugs are limited both by their performance envelop and the shooters placement. Within their envelope and with proper placement, I would have no fear of anything in the lower 48.
And yet if you REALLY do your homework, many in the early days of African game hunting (before the wide spread use of large double rifles) used smooth bore slug guns in the 12 to 4 bore range very effectively. They were effective then, they would be effective now, provided you have the stones of our forefathers and are willing to get close and personal with your trophy.
Good Luck & Be Safe
Slugs have provided several good size whitetail for my dinner table. Back in the late 1960's a well placed slug stopped a fair sized brown bear in my backyard in Priest Lake. All guns and ammo are have limits. However it's hard to carry that magic golf bag full of the guns one "might" have need of!
Truly, the scattergun IS the gun that tamed the west, it has worked against all comers, not always the best choice, but like a hammer it does a lot of jobs. Good scattergun slugs are limited both by their performance envelop and the shooters placement. Within their envelope and with proper placement, I would have no fear of anything in the lower 48.
And yet if you REALLY do your homework, many in the early days of African game hunting (before the wide spread use of large double rifles) used smooth bore slug guns in the 12 to 4 bore range very effectively. They were effective then, they would be effective now, provided you have the stones of our forefathers and are willing to get close and personal with your trophy.
Good Luck & Be Safe
I think there are some good posts in this one...and I don't think that I will provide any new information.
But the answer is NOTHING. However, a slug loaded pump shotgun is probably better at defense than offense.
However, a 45-70 loaded with Garrett Cartridges can and HAS taken every big, dangerous land animal on the planet. I don't know if there is a better choice than that.
But the answer is NOTHING. However, a slug loaded pump shotgun is probably better at defense than offense.
However, a 45-70 loaded with Garrett Cartridges can and HAS taken every big, dangerous land animal on the planet. I don't know if there is a better choice than that.
This post gets to the heart of the matter. The 12ga with a hard slug has enormous penetrating ability - it's just not the most accurate nor aerodynamic. Therefore, range/trajectory and accuracy are the limiting factors in using slugs, not its energy.
Slug guns are common bear defense weapons because you will by definition be using them at close-to-contact ranges. Most folk that hunt dangerous game (including bear) really want to drop them outside of contact range...