What went wrong?

D

Don P

New member
I work for this company and we are trying to figure out WHO let there guard down WHO was not paying attension
Chief calls guards' deaths 'assassination'



PHILADELPHIA, Oct. 4 (UPI) -- Philadelphia police Thursday conducted an intensive manhunt for a solitary gunman who killed two armored truck guards in a robbery attempt.

"It was an assassination," said Police Commissioner Sylvester Johnson in describing the shooting deaths of the two Loomis guards who were retired police officers.

Both victims had more than 20 years on the Philadelphia force when they retired, the Philadelphia Inquirer reported. A third person, the armored truck driver, was grazed by flying glass.

Mark Clark, vice president of communications at Loomis' corporate office in Houston, the three were servicing an ATM machine at a Wachovia Bank branch. Following procedure, Clark said, two men worked on the ATM while the third remained inside.

Clark said the assailant shot and killed the two at the ATM, then fired at the vehicle.

"We have not had a employee shot and killed for many, many years," Clark told the Philadelphia newspaper.

Police recovered an empty money bag not far from the scene.

Preliminary reports indicated police were searching for two men and two women who may have either participated in the crime or witnessed it. During a briefing, police said they were searching for only one gunman.

:o:(:mad:
Down here we do not have both people outside the truck working on a ATM. One is supposed to stay vigilant and observe the surroundings being he is the guard
 
maybe with so many years served they were just tired of being alert.

Its terrible. Said that people kill innocent others for money.
 
Same Question

I also work for this company 22, and we have spent all day trying figure out WTF???:mad: Without giving away TTPs, it just should'nt have happened:confused:. Prayers go out to the families, and I hope they get this POS.
Ed
 
I forget who said, "Routine will get you killed", but this looks like a case of exactly that. I don't know the situation, but is it possible that not only was one guard not on alert but was his weapon holstered for PR reasons? At one time, the guard on alert had his weapon in his hand, but I have been told that is no longer done by some companies as a few people complained that they were frightened by the sight of the gun.

This also proves a simple truth. No one, repeat no one, is fast enough to draw or maybe even fire a drawn gun under a surprise attack at close range. It's not TV, folks. The bad guy does not walk up, look menacing, and discuss the morality of armed robbery for ten minutes between commercial breaks. He just shoots. And the guard can't shoot until he is sure the person approaching is an attacker, not just a curious citizen.

Jim
 
The assumption that someone failed to do something is not warranted at this time, unless there is additional informaiton available to be shared. (If so, share.)

Sometimes things go south, fast, and people go down despite best efforts. That's life.

See Jim's second paragraph.
 
Doesn't the 3rd guy know what happened? What I've observed at my morning bus stop is that the armored car comes to the ATM about 100 yds away the same time every day. Two guys jump out like they don't have a care in the world. There's lots of concealment at this site where the bank branch is closed at this time of morning in a lonely corner of a sprawling complex. The guards amaze me by their seemingly careless attitude.
 
If armored glass was shattered it sounds like rifle fire... depending on the number of people around and obstructions one could take cover behind, there may have been no way to prevent it.

I have seen some of these guys act carelessly and others very professional. I was in a convenient store once while two guys serviced an ATM while another remained in the armored truck. One guy was refilling the ATM while the other stood with his back to him, hand on the butt of his firearm, scanning around inside the store (I assume the guy in the truck had the duty of watching the outside). He had on a large vest that included the high armored collar.

Even with that sort of diligence, however, an assailant with decent-caliber rifle could hop out of a van and start firing before the guy in the car can radio to the two inside or even honk the horn, and the body armor wouldn't make much difference.
 
Sadly, I think the armored car guards are stuck in an almost no-win situation. They have to service an ATM and may have a few thousand bucks to load the machine in a public area. One has to look at the machine and one has to be on guard, which means if the "guarding officer" is taken by surprise, the other can't react fast enough. And all too often they are procedurally restricted to low-key readiness for PR and liability reasons.

About 5 years ago, a friend applied at a couple of armored car services and decided not to pursue a job at either. At one, he was flatly told he could carry only company-issued guns & ammo (old Model 10's with 158gr RNL ammo), the gun holstered at all times and only 5-rounds loaded (empty under the hammer). :rolleyes: Apparently no one had updated their policies in 60 years. The other company was a bit better - you could carry your own .38-only revolver with +P JHPs but their policy was do not shoot unless shot at first! :eek:

And neither company paid for soft body armor as part of their uniform. :(

Oddly enough, he did get a job driving one of those lightly armored vans that says "book keeping materials only". Yet this company allowed him to carry anything he can qualify with and a backup gun. :rolleyes: His carry? A C&L 1911 with Hydrashoks.
 
I want to state up front I am not saying either of the slain men violated anything or did anything wrong but I am talking in generalities here.

People in general (even people that have to go in harms way) assume that the bad thing is going to happen to someone else. You get distracted about the fight you had with your wife, or the meal that isn't sitting well with you, or what you have to do after work, or your next task. A lot of people try to give the persona that we are 100% super vigilente all the time but it is almost impoosible to be that way. How many times when driving have you had to slam on brakes or something because your mind was wandering?

Okay now to talk about the situation at hand.
These 3 guys had probably made this ATM stop a millions times with no problem. There was no pulse quickening music to que them in that something was about to happen. We all, if placed in a similar situation with no forewarning, could only hope to come out wounded as opposed to dead. From what I understand they have video of this guy pulling up and calmly putting on gloves and getting a weapon out. He had planned this out.
 
Well, that's what strikes me as strange about what I've observed. Is it really a good idea to do the same thing at the same time every day. I know that if I've noticed these guy's pattern then someone who wishes no good probably has also.
 
Same thing

that happens everytime a LEO or other trained professional gets popped. Some a$$hole managed to get lucky and get the jump on him. Makes me wish the electric chair was still in operation. Nothing like watching your buddies jerk around on Ol' Sparky to help ya change your ways...
 
DougO83 said:
Some a$$hole managed to get lucky
Click to expand...

You're probably correct, but let's not make it easy for the bad guys.

I used to hang out with a retired sheriff. He been out of the service for many years due to a hip injury. But every time we ran errands he'd return me to my home, or backtrack to his house, by a varied route.

He stated that he never really knew how he'd return, by what route (if any) or at any special time. As a younger man he had been in drug interdiction, an area of crime where cops were brazenly and deliberately killed. He never forgot that.

I often wondered if it mattered in his case. He had been retired for quite some time. But he helped put a lot of guys away, and frankly they might be plotting to kill him after serving time for a decade.

When I return home, I must admit I get lazy. I want to get home at the same time, have some dinner, pick a route that avoids traffic. I fall into ruts. I have old enemies, as well, and this tragic incident shows what happens when we fall into condition white.
 
I feel really bad for these guys, my prayers go out to their families.

Ten years ago I was employed with a similar company( 2 guys from another company killed in Michigan the week I started)...while working on an ATM your attention is on the machine so it is IMPERATIVE that your partner watch the surroundings including all people/pedestrians with weapon DRAWN (we always did). Anyone approaching the vehicle (including any curious bystanders) were given special attention because all of these armoured vehicles are marked DO NOT APPROACH!

At least with the company I worked for, we were allowed to carry personal-owned firearms as long as they were DA in a defensive caliber (min. 9mm/.38) and we were allowed to bring personal shotguns or carbines(limited to pistol cartridge cals.)

We also tried our best to vary our routes every day as much as possible as to not create a predictable pattern.

BTW, people in this job are woefully underpaid.

Nate
 
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Reprehensible

This also proves a simple truth. No one, repeat no one, is fast enough to draw or maybe even fire a drawn gun under a surprise attack at close range.
Click to expand...

I agree with this statement 100%. This doesn't mean one should be less situationally aware, but when in a situation like this, no one could have done anything different.

This incident happened to be where I do my banking. I really hope they get this guy.
 
Horrible, and sad. I once applied for a armored position about 7 years ago. I was between jobs (ex police officer) did the interviewed and found out the company supplied the firearm, a 38 special--oh boy!!! of course I said forget it.

Do most companies make the guards carry company firearms and are they restricted to a certain caliber?

I hope they let them carry some type of semi-auto!!!! (hi capacity )
 
"If armored glass was shattered it sounds like rifle fire..."

Bullet resistant glass is well known to spall on the interior even when the projectile does not penetrate.
The glass layers shatter and the platic layers are stretched to absorb energy.
This results in spall from the interior.
If the glass is thick enough you can eliminate spall for lower power rounds, but as you approach enough power to penetrat deeply spall occurs.
 
More info

UPDATE: Armored Car Guards Shot, Two Killed
Last Update: 10/04 9:43 pm

PHILADELPHIA (AP) -- Motorists were buzzing by on their morningcommute when a man in a yellow baseball cap got out of his car,ready to kill. He donned gloves and walked more than 700 feet to where a pairof armored car guards -- both former police officers -- were removingdeposits from a bank ATM, police said. He didn't say a word. "He never gave (the guards) any time to surrender the money,"police Commissioner Sylvester Johnson said hours after Thursday'sshooting. "He never spoke to either (of them), he just came outinitially and just assassinated them, that fast." The robber approached the car from behind shortly after 8 a.m.,shot one guard in the chest, then went around the vehicle and shotthe second guard as he tried to unholster his gun, police said. The gunman fired at the cab of the Loomis armored car beforefleeing in a black Acura TL sedan, police said. A third guard, thedriver, was wounded. All the guards had guns. None fired a shot. "There was no physical contact at all. There was just firing,it was an assassination," Johnson said. Johnson said surveillance tape from the Wachovia bank's securitycamera and another northeast Philadelphia business showed therobber getting out of his car and putting on gloves before killingWilliam Widmaier, 65, and Joseph Alullo, 54. Widmaier, a Philadelphia police officer from 1966 to 1989, andAlullo, who served on the police force from 1973 to 2000, wereassigned to the same district, where they became friends, Johnsonsaid. Widmaier was shot once in the chest, and Alullo was shot threetimes in the chest and abdomen, police said. The third guard was grazed by shattered glass as the robbertried to shoot through the armored car, said Loomis spokesman MarkClark. The injured guard was treated for lacerations and released froma hospital, a spokeswoman said. Authorities said he was 69 but didnot release his name. Widmaier was married with adult children and Alullo was marriedwith three daughters, Loomis said in a statement. The men workedout of the company's branch in Pennsauken, N.J. "These were experienced, dependable guys who have dedicated agreat part of their lives to serving their community," said CalMurri, president of Loomis U.S. "It is a terrible loss for usall." A short time after the shootings, police recovered an emptyduffel bag behind the Turf Club, an off-track betting parlordirectly behind the bank, Johnson said. Police believe that the bagbelonged to the armored car. Johnson said he did not know how muchmoney the shooter got away with. The mall where the bank is located was shut down, and policewere stopping motorists leaving the area as they searched for thegunman. The mall and several schools in the area that had beenplaced under lockdown were reopened around midday. Police initially said they were looking for four suspects, butJohnson said it appeared there was only one robber. Johnson said police and FBI investigators were reviewingsurveillance video from the bank, which is at a busy intersectionof shops and other businesses. Police showed cropped still frames from the bank surveillancetape that show a man wearing a yellow baseball cap pointing ahandgun toward the front of the ATM. FBI spokeswoman Jerri Williamssaid the full view of the scene was being withheld out of respectfor the victims' families. Johnson said Widmaier and Alullo became friends while workingtogether in the 7th Police District. They started working at Loomistogether after leaving the department, where there is always achance of leaving for work and never coming back. "I'm sure once they retired their families did not have thatconcern anymore," Johnson said. "It was a concern today."

As a side note here,700 ft is approx 1/8 of a mile. W.T.F. was the driver doing? I realize things happen quick, but 700 ft away.:mad: We have not received any info at the branch level other than what co-workers have supplied. This is almost unbelievable:barf:
 
Some of my thoughts

after reading the replies after my above post. We are NOT PERMITED to have our weapons drawn PER COMPANY POLICY. We are permited to carry a 357 with 38spl rds or a 9mm with hollow points. Caliber choice is state regulated and ammo is state and company reged. As I stated in my previous post 700 feet is a considerable distance and YES I do believe that they may have become complacant and dropped there guard. My thought and point, DRIVER, DRIVER, DRIVER, what were you doing? Loomis will contribute money to body armore. Here in hot humid FLA I find it hard staying hydrated, but after this if I am jumping I'll be wearing my vest. From what we have heard if they were wearing armore they would still be with us. Hind sight is great isn't it. :(
We are permited to carry 10 rds. in the semi and 10 rds in 2 extra mags for a total of 30 rds.
 
Still no need for criticism. How crowded was the street in question? 700 feet unnoticed down a crowded street could be accomplished in a pink tu tu with a sign hung around the neck reading, "I'm gonna rob you." Not so much on a deserted street. Or maybe so if the robber was practiced at appearing nonchalant - something it might surprise some robbers often practice.

Again, don't get me wrong: There is something to be learned from this. I'm just not sure any of us are in a position to comment on what it might be as yet.
 
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