What to tell police if no shots fired?

RBT88: I'm from the 609 area code of NJ (Willingboro Twp). I am sorry you feel that way, but I completely disagree with your assessment.
Click to expand...


Again, If it were me I would call asap and tell them everything. I'm just playing devils advocate becuase I could see why someone would want to keep an incident to themselves.

I'm from cape may BTW,... always nice to see fellower 609ers :D
 
RedBowTies88 said:
Thats not what I mean at all, when I made reference to "real america" I was making a reference to pro 2A states. .....all im saying is the same inncident in 2 different states or even different areas of the same state can be and often are treated entirely differently...
Click to expand...
And exactly what evidence do you have to support that assertion? Any actual examples?

Yes, how a situation may be handled could have be affected by the points of view or personal attitudes of the LEOs or officials dealing with the matter, which might or might not be reflective of the prevailing attitudes of the community. Characterizing it as a Blue State vs. Red State thing is overly simplistic. Larry Hickey and Harold Fish had some very tough times in gun friendly Arizona.

RedBowTies88 said:
...in states like this as soon as a prosecuter hears the word gun they're going to try and come after you wether you were right or wrong. If they can nail you with a technicality you bet they will...
Click to expand...
Again, what actual evidence do you have?
 
Frank Ettin said:
And exactly what evidence do you have to support that assertion? Any actual examples?
Click to expand...
Since you ask,

I recall Meleanie Hain, a soccer mom in Lebanon, PA who had her concealed carry license revoked for carrying openly.
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2008/10/soccer_parents_wince_at_prospe.html

Unfortunately her story was overshadowed by her later murder at the hands of her husband. But the judge who ordered the Sheriff to restore her concealed carry permit found the Sheriff's action without merit.

I recall Brad Krause's story (sorry, I cannot locate any details, but I followed the story for a few months) who was taken into custody from his own front yard because he had a holstered revolver openly and legally carrying. A neighbor called the police to find out if it was legal. Police showed up and took him away. It took a while for the charges to be dismissed (disorderly conduct, which the defense and the judge found to be an egregious misuse of police authority and prosecutorial misconduct). It took several more months to get his gun back and when he did it was coated with an unidentifiable substance. Basically ruined the finish.

By the way, the neighbor testified on the guy's behalf.

edit: found a link to the story
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2843410/posts

This link connects to a story from Canada, but it does show the alarm some people have at even the thought of a gun.

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/canada/archives/2012/02/20120224-095016.html

There was this student who so alarmed his professor with a class assignment that he was called into the Campus Police office from his part-time job and grilled over what firearms he owned. The Campus Police even had a list of them already (which he kept at his home in another state).
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,504524,00.html
http://www.conservativecrusader.com...-police-on-student-supporter-of-2nd-amendment

Conservative Crusader Newspaper said:
Professor Calls Police on Student Supporter of 2nd Amendment

by: warner todd huston | published: 03 05, 2009

The assignment for Central Connecticut State University student John Walberg and his two classmates was to give an oral presentation on a "relevant issue in the media." The three chose school violence for their topic.

After the oral presentation was over, professor Paula Anderson of Communication 140, promptly filed a complaint with the CCSU Police against student Wahlberg claiming he made students "scared and uncomfortable." Professor Anderson deemed Wahlberg a "perceived risk" and felt it was her duty to "protect" her class.
Click to expand...

Abuse of power under color of authority is a danger in any society, less so in a democracy, but it does exist. We (as are our police) are human, with all the human frailties that entails.

Of course we only get some of the story from the internet and the news, but these and other stories seem to support the contention that there are some places where having a gun brings an unreasonable assumption of "badness", even among those who should know better.

Lost Sheep
 
Last edited:
Lost Sheep said:
...Since you ask,...
Click to expand...
Yes, but those were isolated incidents and not related to a particular defensive use of the gun.

RedBowTies88 said:
RedBowTies88 said:
...in states like this as soon as a prosecuter hears the word gun they're going to try and come after you wether you were right or wrong. If they can nail you with a technicality you bet they will...
Click to expand...
The statement was a broad, sweeping statement to the effect that certain undesirable actions will always be taken in certain States in response to a defensive gun use, even if no shots are fired (that is the subject of this thread).

Yes, sometimes officials overreact or act improperly. They do so in connection with matters that don't involve guns as well as matters that do involve guns.

But a categorical statement that in some States (or regions) the lawful defensive use of a gun will generally be met with official overreaching is simply inaccurate.
 
Frank Ettin said:
Yes, but those were isolated incidents and not related to a particular defensive use of the gun.
Click to expand...
Point well taken. But aren't all statistical samplings composed of individual incidents?
Frank Ettin said:
RedBowTies88 said:
...in states like this as soon as a prosecuter hears the word gun they're going to try and come after you wether you were right or wrong. If they can nail you with a technicality you bet they will...
Click to expand...

The statement was a broad, sweeping statement to the effect that certain undesirable actions will always be taken in certain States in response to a defensive gun use, even if no shots are fired (that is the subject of this thread).
Click to expand...
True, RBT may have been hyperbolic. But where one person in a group feels empowered to go beyond his or her authority, the suspicion that there is an atmosphere of permissiveness or even support for whatever bias exists in that individual.

I don't mean to paint all with a brush applicable to individual rogues. But some alarm bells must be going off in your mind when you see individual incidents like these?

The incidents I cited didn't involve use of a gun. They merely involved the existence (and in Brad Krause's case the defense of privately owned firearms and the Canadian case, a drawing).

These reports make me a little uneasy. Don't they do the same to you?

Lost Sheep

edit: P.S. I apologize for contributing to thread drift. What one reports to police after defensive use of a firearm that involved no shots fired is a bit off topic to my focus. But i do think about what police might assume about me due to the mere fact that I carry. I did not think it was a tangential subject too wide of the O.P's question.
 
Last edited:
Lost Sheep said:
...These reports make me a little uneasy. Don't they do the same to you?...
Click to expand...
Of course they do, and for a variety of reasons some of which go far beyond the topic of this thread.

But for our purposes here, the thing is that in any human interaction there is always the possibility of an aberrant response. But the mere possibility of such response is not a good reason to forebear from doing the right thing.

And of course, in the real world no matter what we're talking about it is always a good practice to (1) know and understand the applicable law; (2) conduct yourself in a way that conforms to applicable law; and (3) do the right thing in an intelligent, thoughtful, careful and controlled way. If we approach things that way, even if we get an aberrant response we'll be best able to deal with it successfully.
 
Frank Ettin said:
Lost Sheep said:
...These reports make me a little uneasy. Don't they do the same to you?...
Of course they do, and for a variety of reasons some of which go far beyond the topic of this thread.
Click to expand...

But for our purposes here, the thing is that in any human interaction there is always the possibility of an aberrant response. But the mere possibility of such response is not a good reason to forebear from doing the right thing.

And of course, in the real world no matter what we're talking about it is always a good practice to (1) know and understand the applicable law; (2) conduct yourself in a way that conforms to applicable law; and (3) do the right thing in an intelligent, thoughtful, careful and controlled way. If we approach things that way, even if we get an aberrant response we'll be best able to deal with it successfully.
Click to expand...
Agreed, Frank.

And if we don't do the right thing, we let such aberrant behavior slide and get worse. (But no one wants to be the test case, right?)

Standing up to a mugger is often done with force or the threat of force (and can be scary). Standing up for rights is no less scary sometimes, but we owe it to ourselves to do it. (aside from the general moral responsibility to report crimes and attempted crimes)

We often don't think of the "after action" activities of reporting to police or even just returning home as requiring tactics and training. But they do.

Lost Sheep
 
Concur with TXAZ. Treat the drawing the same way you would if you had actually fired.

It also depends on the Jurisdiction you are located in. In my case, if I were involved in an incident in Paul Babeu's jurisdiction in Pinal County AZ I would call 911 report the incident and then call my attorney. His advice is to inform them I am shook up and will schedule an "Interview" at a later time.

If the incident occurred in my home county, Apache County, I would speak freely as i am not on the Sheriff's enemy's list.
 
Since I live and police in a non CCW state I shouldn't opine about things I don't have knowledge of... But, when did that ever stop me.

Report the crime and your response to it. Lying even by omission will bite you in the bottom. Doesn't have to be a disposition just a sketch of facts in case it goes anyplace.... Lotsa stating of fear for my life and threats made and weapons displayed by offender would be in my report.

If you were right to use deadly force you were right to draw.
 
To defend my compatriot from Cape May (greetings cousin!), let me interject this:

In NJ, where I lived for years, posession of a firearm outside of your own propery is a crime unless you are directly transporting to or from a shooting range. No exceptions. If you ever use one to defend yourself, you WILL be arrested and prosecuted as a criminal. No exceptions. Those NJ residents who participate in civil disobediance and carry for defense in contravention of the law are already felons.. albeit ones who have made the calculus decision to accept trial by 12 rather than transport by 6 if they need to defend themselves. NONE of them will be picking up the phone to report that they have drawn on a bad guy who then ran... they will simply be hoping against hope that they can withdraw without anyone noticing. I daresay that most "disobediant" (IE: "Criminal" if you want to use the correct term) carriers in NJ would not even bother calling 911 after shooting a bad guy... even if other than their decision to violate the carry laws they are saints: Makes no difference if their defense was justified under defensive use of force laws: For the mere carriage of what they then lawfully used they will go to jail, no if's and's or but's. They would likely attempt to disengage and dissapear... alive and still scared of what the state will try to do to them. It's sad but true. There is NO rapport between the law and firearms owners in NJ.


This mindset is so ingrained into the NJ shooting community that members of same have a complete and utter distrust of law enforcement policies in regards to firearms. Nobody with any sense in NJ draws any attention to themselves regarding firearms in any way, whatsoever. Not at home, work, play, or anywhere else.

It really *is* another world there.


Willie

.
 
Last edited:
To defend my compatriot from Cape May (greetings cousin!), let me interject this:

In NJ, where I lived for years, posession of a firearm outside of your own propery is a crime unless you are directly transporting to or from a shooting range. No exceptions. If you ever use one to defend yourself, you WILL be arrested and prosecuted as a criminal. No exceptions. Those NJ residents who participate in civil disobediance and carry for defense in contravention of the law are already felons.. albeit ones who have made the calculus decision to accept trial by 12 rather than transport by 6 if they need to defend themselves. NONE of them will be picking up the phone to report that they have drawn on a bad guy who then ran... they will simply be hoping agaist hope that they can withdraw without anyone noticing. I daresay that most "disobediant" (IE: Feloneous) carriers in NJ would not even bother calling 911 after shooting a bad guy... even if other than their decision to violate the carry laws they are saints: Makes no difference if their defense was justified under defensive use of force laws, for the mere carriage of what they then lawfully used they will go to jail, no if's and's or but's. They would likely attempt to disengage and dissapear... sad but true.


This mindset is so ingrained into the NJ shooting community that members of same have a complete and utter distrust of law enforcement policies in regards to firearms. Nobody with any sense in NJ draws any attention to themselves regarding firearms in any way, whatsoever. Not at home, work, play, or anywhere else.

It really *is* another world there.


Willie
Click to expand...

Appreciate the post Wille. Most people who have never experianced what it is like in a place like this will never understand what it is really like, and quite frankly I can't blame them. It's very hard to devolope an understanding of something that does not make sense in any way shape or form.

People in free America like to think that this is indeed a free a country and that the goverment isn't out to prosecute you. However the sad truth is that sometimes yes, they are.

Again I in no way condone or advocate the actions described by myself and Mr. Sutton. However to understand the mindset of those who do you really must live/have lived in a place like for some time. Walk a mile in someone elses shoes and all that jazz....
 
"Appreciate the post Wille. Most people who have never experianced what it is like in a place like this will never understand what it is really like, and quite frankly I can't blame them. It's very hard to devolope an understanding of something that does not make sense in any way shape or form"



The reciprocal of that is that somone like me who lived in NJ for decades, grew to the age of majority there, and tried to enjoy shooting there as a hobby, is essentially "scarred for life" in regards to their worldview of the way the police and prosecutors will deal with firearms in other venues. I'm VERY glad to be living elsewhere, enjoying my rights as a citizen (for the first time in 50 years, I might add), have my CCW, carry daily, and yet... still.... I feel a sense of "guilt" for the lack of a better word when I see a police cruiser out of the corner of my eye. Being trained with aversion therapy for decades is not something that is easy to lose.

NJ is a place where you have exactly the firearms rights that the police and the prosecutors office say you have... not more and not less. The 2nd Amendment of the Constitution of our Republic is a joke there. Shoot a bad guy IN YOUR HOUSE and the first thought of most of the people there would be "How the hell do I get this dead criminal outta here and into the meadowlands without anyone seeing me"...... because you WILL be charged and harassed and life will become a nightmare for you. Do this on the street... well, you may live, but you're going away for a long-long time. We have people in prison in NJ for shooting a pigeon with a BB gun out of their window: It's a felony there.

I never knew anyone who actually carried in contravention of the law here, and I certainly never did. Heck, I felt like a damned criminal just driving to the range with a .22 in my trunk. I'm sure some do... but not many.


Willie

.
 
RedBowTies88 said:
...http://www.northjersey.com/news/cri...ell_as_boyfriend_who_came_to_victims_aid.html

Could you imagine what he would be charged with if he came out with a gun? even if he didn't shoot the guy...
Click to expand...
Actually, no.

According to the article you linked to, the boyfriend was arrested after he:
...pummeled Johnston, fracturing bones and causing serious injuries to his face and head....
Click to expand...

If one beats up someone else causing those types of injuries, he can probably expect to be arrested. He might claim self defense or defense of another, but all that will have to be sorted out later. An arrest is often the first step.
 
The reciprocal of that is that somone like me who lived in NJ for decades, grew to the age of majority there, and tried to enjoy shooting there as a hobby, is essentially "scarred for life" in regards to their worldview of the way the police and prosecutors will deal with firearms in other venues. I'm VERY glad to be living elsewhere, enjoying my rights as a citizen (for the first time in 50 years, I might add), have my CCW, carry daily, and yet... still.... I feel a sense of "guilt" for the lack of a better word when I see a police cruiser out of the corner of my eye. Being trained with aversion therapy for decades is not something that is easy to lose.

NJ is a place where you have exactly the firearms rights that the police and the prosecutors office say you have... not more and not less. The 2nd Amendment of the Constitution of our Republic is a joke there. Shoot a bad guy IN YOUR HOUSE and the first thought of most of the people there would be "How the hell do I get this dead criminal outta here and into the meadowlands without anyone seeing me"...... because you WILL be charged and harassed and life will become a nightmare for you. Do this on the street... well, you may live, but you're going away for a long-long time. We have people in prison in NJ for shooting a pigeon with a BB gun out of their window: It's a felony there.

I never knew anyone who actually carried in contravention of the law here, and I certainly never did. Heck, I felt like a damned criminal just driving to the range with a .22 in my trunk. I'm sure some do... but not many.


Willie
Click to expand...


I haven't thats for sure... but I'll be honest and sometimes I do think about it. I almost grabbed my carry piece on the way out the door today after hearing about the 47 and 80 year old female tourists that were stabbed to death yesterday in AC in broad daylight. Hearing about such instances just make your blood boil knowing that those people didn't have a snowballs chance in hell of protecting themselves.

I would rather walk around all day in the worst parts of philly (while carrying thanks to my UT permit) then just drive through Camden on the way to jury duty:(
 
Just to remind everyone, this thread is about reporting a defensive gun use in which shots weren't fired. It's not about New Jersey.

Let's get back on topic please.
 
I think you should do the report if you can. I live in Cook County Illinois. I can guarantee if you called this in in this state you would lose all your guns and your state licence to own them.

I don't carry a gun as it is not legal in this state. Only the bad guys get to carry in this state.
 
Call 911 tell that a person(s) tried to commit x crime on you, give info to where person(s) went running off to, his clothing, height etc...


I don't carry a gun as it is not legal in this state. Only the bad guys get to carry in this state.
Click to expand...

I would leave
 
Both times that I had to draw my weapon law enforcement was called. I simply told them what happened. They checked my CHL, took a repoert, had me fill out a statement. Then returned my gun, and sent me on my way.

Shots were not fired on either occasion. Cops looked for suspects afterwards, and told me I would be notified if they found them. I have not heard anything back since.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top