What to do with test rounds during adjustments: Newbie Loader

Y

yex

Inactive
Hi,

I'm totally new to loading and I am coming to an awareness that much of the settings for loading are based upon trial-and-error. In particular, the seating of the bullet into the casing requires trial after trial until the proper die depth setting is found. This also seems to apply to powder quantity, primer depth and crimp depth to name a few.

What I want to know is:

What do you do with improperly set rounds that were creating by the adjustment process. In particular the primer depth trials.

I have a Dillon Super 1050 being set up for 45 ACP.

The question pertaining to primers is of particular interest to me because the 45 cartridge calls for a depth below flush of 5 thousands. Whether this is an accurate measure or not, I imagine there will be more than one shell with a primer that does not measure to this depth.

What do I do with a shell and a live primer at the wrong depth?

The same question applies to poorly seated bullets in a powered casing or maladjusted crimps in live rounds.

Do I put them in a box or throw them away?

What is the proper disposal process?
 
That's why everyone needs either a bullet puller collet die or for pistols the kinetic bullet puller to pull apart loaded rounds that have issues such as a high primer or too deeply seated bullet. For safety never try to seat a primer deeper in a loaded round !! The "hammer" bullet puller works well for pulling pistol bullets. Pull them apart, save the bullet to use again, save the powder if you're 100% sure what it is. If you pull the bullet and dump the powder you can attempt to seat a high primer deeper. Primer pockets are not an exact depth and don't expect every one to be exactly .005" deep. I understand your learning curve with an automatic press but you need to be able to pull bullets. For rifles a separate single stage press and either a RCBS or Hornady collet bullet puller with the proper collet for the bullet caliber or an impact puller that works well for pistol bullets. I don't like to waste components so I try to save bullets, powder, and cases. Just don't try seating primers deeper on loaded rounds. Never
 
Primer depth... As long as the primer is seated flush with the case or slightly deeper I wouldn't even think twice about shooting it.

Maladjusted crimp... same thing. As long as it chambers OK I'd just shoot it. If the crimp is so far off the brass has buckled or the round doesn't chamber I'd just toss it. I'm not going to spend 5 minutes pulling out my bullet puller and setting it up to save $.10 worth of components. My time is more valuable than that.

OAL... that might be a safety concern. Most of my reloads are low pressure rounds like .38 Special or .45 ACP or mid-level loads in 9mm. Being off .05 isn't going to move the pressure into +P territory much less anything dangerous. However there are some loads where OAL is critical. If you're a new reloader I'd hope you aren't pushing the limits with your reloads.
 
As rg1 said, everyone needs a bullet puller. Break down your "oops" loads and reuse the components.

Don
 
What do I do with a shell and a live primer at the wrong depth?
Click to expand...

You started out with 45ACP. there is a inherent problem with high primers in cases loaded for auto load. The slide chambers the next round to be fired, a reloaders does not want to seat primers with the slide.

It goes unnoticed but some shell holders do not have a cut in the shell holder to clear the primer; meaning? It is difficult to remove a case from the shell holder if the primer is not seated.

F. Guffey
 
Yex, with respect, you have a great system for reloading. But, if this is your first foray into reloading, understand a lot of things will be happening simultaneously. Primer depth will be the least of thing to be concerned.

When you say, "...is being set up for .45ACP..." are you setting it up, or someone else?

Reloading can be the simplest or most frustrating thing you can do. Remember, with each pull of the handle, small issue become more and more complicated. Accuracy at each stage of the reloading process is extremely important - particularly with auto-indexing presses.

As others have mentioned - don't sweat the primer depth. Just below the surface. For 30 years I've simply seated primers until they bottom out. I use a simply bullet puller. Got it from Dillon [I think]. Looks like a hammer. Cartridge goes on one end, strike the other end like a hammer, bullet comes out, powder is captured. I use both again.

Lastly, everyone [I mean EVERYONE] who reloads has made mistakes. No doubt you will too. Again, it's a simple process, but the "human element" is prone to mistakes. If you sense an issue - remove all cases from the press and start fresh. Don't assume.

Good luck

Good luck.
 
The 1050 seats primers to a positive stop. Flush to .005" below is ok.

Otherwise, if it has a safe powder charge and the bullet is seated straight enough to chamber, I put in the plinking box and shoot it with low expectations.
 
I just pulled 100 rounds for my first 10mm that I loaded for plinking. I made the mistake of using the 180 grain starting load on 155 grain bullets using Unique. 5.6 grains wont push the slide far enough. A slow powder may have detonated.
 
What you are getting hit with is the dreaded, oh sheese, I need to do this to the T and exactly the way the expert said it should and I am going to die and go to that nasty hot space if not done exactly the way the expert said it should be

Unfortunately along with good advice, there is the gratuitous stuff. I should start a list of it. the 8 glasses of water a day.

Those are ideals, real world is not so clean and tidy as an expert. I wonder if they really read some of the drivel they right and insist you have to do?

My favotie one was from the cold war.
In case of nuclear atack
1. Shut the Blinds
2. Move book cases to cover the windows.
3. Get low
4. Duct and cover
5. Fill the bathtub with water.
6-9. Etc
10. Bend over and kiss your butt good bye.


They throw in a lot of chaff with the wheat and you end up having to sort out the fluff for word filling from real world impacts.

As long as your primers are seated .003 to .005 you are fine. If some are .002 and they are seated, its fine. Not an issue. It might be if you are the world greatest pistol shot, but then you will have Norma brass and another $100 to uniform the pockets, uniform the holes and uniform the City of New York.

As for bullets, once its crimped you are stuck.

As noted, its good practice ammo if it cycles.

If it does not, then a bullet puller. I like the Horandy one, the hammer type get really tedious for more than one round (I do use them for that)
 
{Removed part inapplicable to the 1050}
"...requires trial after trial..." Shouldn't take more than 2, maybe 3. Set up the die with the seating plug well up. Then adjust the plug down. You can use a factory round to start with no fuss. Forget the off-the-lands stuff altogether until you have a load. It's not necessary and it is a 100% trial and error thing.
{Removed smart alec part while I was at it. Please take that to PM's if you feel the need to comment on it.}
 
Now that your into reloading there are many tools that make the job easier , more accurate . I use the ram priming unit by RCBS , I uniform all my brass ,only has to be done once . Cuts all the pockets to the proper depth . Seat your primers by feel , as they bottom . Just another tool to use . I keep the ram primer set , primers seat perfect. Everything seems scary as a new reloader . As long as you follow the instructions you'll be fine , on a 45ACP used in a auto , you don't really have to crimp , just remove the flare . What I do is measure your case thickness with your caliper at the case mouth 12 & 6 o'clock position . Example , case thickness measures .010 times two = .020 plus OD of the bullet .451 Your total measurement on your loaded bullet at the case mouth should be .471 don't over crimp on a auto also use the taper crimp die .Hope I Helped.

Chris
 
cw308,

You made the same mistake T. O'Heir did. The Dillon 1050 seats primers with an adjustable mechanical ram at the same time all 7 other stations perform their operations. There is no way to get any primer seating feel out of it. The ram raises the primer to a fixed (after adjustment) position. The only variation in seating depth will be that due to case rim thickness variation, as the system depends on the shell plate to limit the height the brass and, with it, the floor of the primer pocket can be pushed up to. The priming ram pushes the primer to a fixed position under that plate.


Yex,

Welcome to the forum.

Start with the bullet seating die up too high (seating bullets long). Pull the brass pin at the bullet seating station and remove the cartridges as you seat bullets until you get the bullet height you want. DO NOT LET THEM MOVE TO THE CRIMP DIE UNTIL AFTER YOU HAVE THE SEATING DEPTH SET RIGHT. Once the seating depth is right, put the brass button back and load the rest of the rounds. When they are done, pull the brass pin out again and start slipping all the adjustment test rounds in and let them finish seating to the desired depth and advance to the crimp station and, after crimping, eject into the bin tray.

Your primer depth can vary a little by case and primer brand. If you want a way to optimize the setting, you need some tools, but the -0.003 to -0.005" below flush range is where most will fall. If you want to measure, measure the depths of your primer pockets until you have an average value. Also use your caliper to measure the height of your primers, including the anvil feet sticking up out of them. subtract 0.003" from the average anvil height number, then subtract the result from the average primer pocket depth. That will give you how many thousandths below flush you want your primers to be. The idea is to seat them so the anvil feet are pressed 0.003" into the primer when you seat, compressing the priming mix with the anvil tip by that much. While -0.005 below flush is a good number, there is enough variation in cases that I find this worth checking for precision rifle loads. I don't think you'll see any real difference between "adequate" and "perfect" primer seating in pistol rounds, though. A pistol that can shoot 25 yard groups as tight as a rifle shoots 100 yard groups is considered of pistol-equivalent accuracy to that rifle. In other words, a good rifle is about four times more precise than a good pistol, so it reveals smaller sources of error. As long as the primers are below flush, a pistol round will normally function and accuracy differences due to small differences in primer seating depth are unlikely to be apparent.
 
Many Thanks

Hey everyone,

This is all super information. Thank you.

I am glad I do not have to worry about the seating of the primer. It makes sense I would not have to, but as it was pointed out until I actually fire my loaded rounds I'm going to be a bit nervous until I do.

I am really excited by the support offered here as well. As you may be able to tell, I'm one of those guys that jumps head first and then starts to ask questions. It was pointed out that I was configuring the 1050 for 45 ACP. Yes, I purchased it for 223 and decided to also load 45. Therefore, for the purchase options I chose 223. This then, of course, caused me to become almost reactionary to buy all the change over components, but I think I got them all.

As you know, this also requires me to change the toolhead, shell plate and the case plunger. I decided to get an additional toolhead for easier changes, but I still need to set the dies on the new one.

I am ok with the trial and error aspect of setting the dies as I also went head first into metal working (my poor wife) and now have a lathe and milling machine in the garage. (Super handy when you need one.) This also might explain my question about the 0.005in tolerance requirement. If the requirement was hard and fast it wouldn't surprise me.

On another note, the OAL of some Federal 45ACP I have is 1.267+/-0.001. This is quite different from Lyman's 49th edition figure for 1.275in OAL on page 380. Should I set to 1.275 or 1.267?

I am going to use 231 Powder (Lyman suggests 5.2 gr.), Winchester Large Pistol Primer and going with new Winchester Brass with 230 gr. bullet.

This also leads into the question of power. Is that also trial and error but by weight? Meaning do I drop some powder into a case and compare the weight with a primed case with no powder?

Thanks again for the support. It's a good feeling to not be alone in the garage with explosives.
 
yex
Is 5.2 the suggested starting load ? I'm shooting a 230 gr FMJ and 230gr Plated bullet also with W231 My load is on the mild side 4.6 OAL 1.255 no feed issues. You could start lower and work up 5 rounds each to find the perfect load, raise .1 every 5 rounds . You will see different load books have different starting & maximum loads , from the 4 load books I have I take the lowest & highest from all the books to find my range . Low as long as the slide operates an work up from there.
 
Last edited:
Yex, I'll leave adjustment advice to Unclenick...he's by far the resident expert here. But I will say that 5.2 gr of Win 231 with 230 FMJ or lead alloy bullets or 200 gr LSWC's is my go to load in .45 ACP. Either will work with near 100% reliability, and that charge is my 25 & 50 yd target load. With a good 1911, it should produce 2" or better groups at 25 yds from a rest. It's worked that well in nearly a dozen 1911's of my experience as well as a superb Smith Model 25, and a Colt Single Action Army with fitted .45 ACP cylinder. Rod
 
I think I might have invented an all caliber bullet puller.
Take the die out of a single stage press.
Raise the cartridge to the top.
Grab the bullet with the chuck from an old cordless drill (or even one that attached)
Pull the handle up.
Done.
 
I think I might have invented an all caliber bullet puller.
Take the die out of a single stage press.
Click to expand...

I have pulled thousands of bullets, when pulling bullets salvaging the bullets makes it economical and then there is the case and powder. For years reloader have used plyers.

F. Guffey
 
I think the single biggest mistake new loader's make is to start looking for corner's to cut and trick's to use before they even learn how to make good ammo. If your loading hunting ammo, you don't need 1" ammo, what you need is ammo that function's every time and performs consistently! But you listen to suggestions on the internet for making better ammo and you end up with a bunch of tool's you don't really know how to work and then one misunderstanding leads to another! You will probably not read about all these tools and short cut's to better ammo in your loading manual, well no manual I know of but then again mine are normally older one's. What you learn from them is how to make good ammo with out all the fuss.

You mentioned distance of the bullet off the lands. I haven't a clue how far off the lands my bullet's are, never have. What I know is they are not seated into the lands. Some factory ammo will shoot very well in a lot of different rifle's, shooter's been doing it for years. Guess what, factory ammo is not made to be a certain length off the lands, it's made to fit in every rifle's magazine of that cartridge and every chamber. Point being before you get to the stage your at now, you should have learned to make good ammo, then these question's wouldn't come up much! American shooter's have become overwhelmed in their search for perfection, weather they need it or not! Simply learn to make good ammo and start from there. The best tool's in the world won't help you, first you have to learn.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top