What the hell is being said here?

Status
Not open for further replies.
F

funinsun

New member
While purusing Oleg Volk's sight(a co-moderater) I came across the following reasons as to why to have a rifle. What the hell is being said here-when police kick in your door go ahead and do them in with your kevlar defeatable rifle??? What kind of message does this portray?? And then further, it may not be a mistake it may be they are at the right door, which means they obviously have a reason to be there, so go ahead and do them in as well??? AM I missing something here-I totally agree with the bad guy scenario-but whatis being said is wether the LAW is there by mistake or not a rifle would be a good choice for your home because it will go through kevlar. Here is the paragraph posted directly from the sight:

If you just happen to be very unlucky, the intruder may not be alone. He may also have body armor, proof against pistol bullets.

Such a scenario is likely if DEA or local police are there by mistake. They have been known to kick in the wrong doors. Sometimes they kick in the "right doors", it just might happen that the door is yours.
A rifle bullet would go through a Kevlar vest.

Rifles are also more likely to have a larger deteachable magazines than either pistols or shotguns. If you are have the time to reach for more than your sidearm, get a rifle or a shotgun.
 
Yep...your missing something! Al Gore will show you what that is when you and all of the Anti-Gun Cops vote for him in November. Quit whinning-not everyone likes or trusts cops and they certainly do little to earn that trust.
 
You are right, it might be DEA, and they might rush in by "mistake" like a WACO situation. But does that mean they are rushing in with any less of deadly force? Nope. Do they rush the wrong house? All the time. Does that mean "oops, they rushed my house by mistake, they will figure it out.." or does it mean "They are out to kill me, I have to defend myself and my loved ones, and we can settle this in court, but I need to stay alive long enough to go to court" Which scenerio do you like better?

I personally have seen Amish (yes, Amish!!!) people's houses get raided by heavily armed and armoured police. Amish??? They will stop at nothing, Clinton drones will not hesitate to ram down your door, and kill you and your family, and then later on have Janet Reno apologize for the mistake, ask for a full investigation, and then sweep it under the rug.

That's all Oleg is saying...

Albert
 
Legion 3, it is you who is truly missing something. Quite an outlook you have. Whether or not cops in general engender your trust is immaterial. Advocating their murder because of a mistake is a sad illustration of where you are in the gene pool. MOST cops are pro-gun/RKBA, btw.
 
THe wrong house owner is just as dead from a mistake as if they had the right house.

------------------
beemerb
We have a criminal jury system which is superior to any in the world;
and its efficiency is only marred by the difficulty of finding twelve men
every day who don't know anything and can't read.
-Mark Twain
 
Bad guys have been known to use body armor too. Home invaders have even been known to shout "Police!" as they enter to put the homeowner off guard. If someone kicks your door down in the middle of the night, are you going to wait and see if they have valid ID?

I'm not sure about case law on this, but I suspect that an innocent, law abiding person who defends himself against a no-knock battering ram entry could make a case in court.
 
Guys, this belongs in General or Legal/Political, and I think what Oleg is generally referring to is two things: either a EOTWAWKI / SHTF scenario, where a tyrannical gestapo state has taken over (foreign or domestic - i.e. the gov't orders collection of firearms), OR where he/we truly think we are being attacked by thugs, and in that case it's not murder if in your mind its purely self-defense (if you don't know they're legit LEOs). I don't think Oleg's advocating murder, short of what I just described, or perhaps a seccession/revolution scenario. In these cases, penetrating body armor is desrirable. We like LEOs here, because most are pro-RKBA and good people. I don't think funinsun can be fairly described as anti-gun, either. He's just not as deeply aware of gestapo-ish possibilities happening here, perhaps.

Also, "it" is not being said "here". It's being said at Oleg's site.

[This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited June 15, 2000).]
 
Consider this:

AP National
FBI Agent Ruled Immune in Idaho

SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- The FBI agent who killed the wife of white separatist Randy Weaver during the Ruby Ridge standoff is immune from state prosecution in Idaho, a federal appeals court ruled Wednesday.
Sharpshooter Lon Horiuchi shot Vicki Weaver in 1992 while she held her baby. At the time, federal agents had converged on the family's cabin to arrest Randy Weaver on a weapons trafficking charge. Horiuchi said he did not see Vicki Weaver when he fired at an armed associate of Randy Weaver.
Idaho prosecutors pursued a manslaughter charge against Horiuchi, but the charge was dismissed by a federal judge.
A three-member panel of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals upheld the dismissal, ruling that Horiuchi was acting in his official duty as a federal law enforcement officer.

I know I will be absoluteky safe if SA Horiuch and some of his friends are at my door with official FBI shoot to kill orders.
 
I've said it before, if anyone breaks down my door and enters without my permission I will immediately assume that the life of my family and myself are in immediate danger and respond accordingly.

You see, since I know nobody in my house is a crminal, any forced entry would have to be either tyrranical or a "mistake".

I will not risk the life of my family or myself for either case. It will be condition red in about 700 milliseconds...

CMOS

------------------
NRA? Good. Now join the GOA!

The NRA is our shield, the GOA will be our sword.
 
funinsun - You know this doesn't belong in the handgun forum, so why put it here? Moving to Legal and Political...
 
Funinsun - Oleg has earned the right to be terrified of tyranny, as he grew up in USSR. He's seen what happens when a people abjectly bows to the government.

And frankly, I agree with him. That's why I keep my rifles handy.
 
I have always obeyed moral laws as society as thus decreed. But I cannot sanction the illegal breaking and entering of peoples homes by any law enforcement agency that has caused wrongful injury and death to innocent American citizens. I would not be able to repell intruders of that sort because of heart disease, but my trigger finger still works pretty good and that is why the Pres. and his ilk are trying to take our firearms away from us. That is to say, they will be taking our trigger fingers pretty soon. For those of you who can put up resistance in such a scenario...remember...they don't wear Kevlar on their faces, just ninja ski mask. Practice your head shots at the range, you don't need a rifle for that. And for you cops who don't like to hear this kind of talk, we don't like Jack Booted Thugs who don't give a crap about our Constitutional rights and The Bill of Rights. This sure as hell isn't going to be another police state like Nazi Germany was. We the armed citizenry will not allow this to happen. We have the right to defend our homes. You'll have kill us all before American sinks to that despicable level of tyranny. Our WW-2 veterans would have fought in vain...to one day see this Country produce the Jack Booted Thug...like the S.S.Gestapo. :mad:

James
 
James E.,

Deep breath! I know it's easy to get worked up about this topic. It's been hashed out more than once on this forum. And I truely understand that you are talking only to those police who believe that an armed citizenry is a threat to their "authority".

My blood pressure increases also when we discuss "no-knock" warrants, especially those that are sworn out for an ounce of marijuana, and there is not a clearly establish need for such a warrant.

Anyway, it's all for the advancement of the War on Drugs! Don't you know! :rolleyes:

------------------
John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!
www.cphv.com
 
From the other perspective. There are two sides to every coin:
THE POLICE OFFICER

Well, Mr. Citizen, it seems you've figured me out. I seem to fit neatly

into the category where you've placed me. I'm stereotyped, standardized,

characterized, classified, grouped, and always typical. Unfortunately,
the reverse is true..I can never figure you out.

>From birth you teach your children that I'm the bogeyman, then you're
shocked when they identify with my traditional enemy..the criminal!

You accuse me of coddling criminals: until I catch your kids doing
wrong.

You may take an hour for lunch and several coffee breaks each day, but
point me out as a loafer for having one cup.

You pride yourself on your manners, but think nothing of disrupting my
meals with your troubles.

You raise hell with the guy who cuts you off in traffic, but let me
catch you doing the same thing and I'm picking on you.
You know all the traffic laws...but you've never gotten a single ticket
you deserve.

You shout "foul" if you observe me driving fast to a call, but raise the

roof if I take more than ten seconds to respond to your complaint.

You call it part of my job if someone strikes me, but call it police
brutality if I strike back. You wouldn't think of telling your dentist
how to pull a tooth or your doctor how to take out an appendix, yet your

always willing give me pointers on the law.

You talk to me in a manner that would get you a bloody nose from anyone
else, but expect me to take it without batting an eye.

You yell something's got to be done to fight crime, but you can't be
bothered to get involved.

You have no use for me at all, but of course it's OK if I change a flat
for your wife, deliver your child in the back of the patrol car, or
perhaps save your son's life with mouth to mouth breathing, or work many

hours overtime looking for your lost daughter.

So, Mr. Citizen, you can stand there on your soapbox and rant and rave
about the way I do my work, calling me every name in the book, but never

stop to think that your property, family, or maybe even your life
depends on me or one of my buddies.

Yes, Mr. Citizen, it's me...the lousy cop!


The author of this article was Trooper Mitchell Brown of the Virginia
State Police. He was killed in the line of duty two months after
writing
the article.

I know several cops but I don't know any "jack booted thugs". If you are discussing the issue of home invasions or mistaken enterings by warranted officers that's one thing, spewing hateful generalizations about hardworking LEOs is something else.

------------------
Those who use arms well cultivate the Way and keep the rules.Thus they can govern in such a way as to prevail over the corrupt- Sun Tzu, The Art of War
 
This is a hard one. On one hand, you do have the right to defend yourself from criminals (in most states anyway) and on the other, if they announce "Polic, FBI, etc.." and you still fire and win, then you could be held accountable. Of course, if they don't yell or announce themselves and kill you, then they won't be held accountable either. This gets even worse if you're a renter (or even buy a used home) and the people that lived there before you were always in trouble with the law. We had the local LEO's come up to our door about 12am one night. Two cars, lights flashing, the whole nine yards. They knocked on the door (actually pounded) which set off the dogs. Being in bed, upstairs, it took about a min. to get dressed, another min. to walk to the door (armed, they didn't say police and I really didn't notice the lights). I opened the door to the door block (about two inches). They showed their badges (the backup LEO had his hand on his Glock). I put the gun in my back pocket and asked how I could help them. They were serving a warrent to the son of the person that used to live there. I told them that they didn't live here any longer. They wanted to search the house. I was tired, told them to come back with a valid warrent and they could. I showed them my ID stating who I was (which they called in). All in all, the LEO's did go away and found the kid in the trailer the family had moved too. But what if they had just broken down the door? Shot at my dogs (as far as I'm concerned, they shoot my dog, they've just shot a member of my family). I thought about that since I couldn't get back to sleep and I really don't know how I would have reacted if they had carried out a no-knock warrent on the old right address but the wrong people. USP45usp
 
Background info on me: the man who introduced me to firearms and RKBA is a police instructor. I am on friendly terms with local beat cops and would defend them if I were in the position to save their lives. I also stand by the idea of retaining the capability to defeat body armor.

Let me explain how the comments got on my site:

When I realized that something is rotten in our fair kingdom, I panicked. I knew that I was not good as a rifleman. However, my first weapon was an SKS, picked out in large part because of its ability to defeat light cover and armor. I reasoned that at 20ft even I can't miss with a shoulder arms.

My site is a mish-mash of articles and opinions written over a five-year period: I am in the process of re-writng the entire RKBA site now to avoid being unclear.

My views on cops have improved lately, in part because I took the time to meet my local police force. My views on police administrators got worse, as they (at least here) actively hinder my efforts to stay safe. My view on DEA and related agencies has got much worse. Local cops seems to be at least somewhat accountable for their actions...I am not so sure about the alphabet soup agencies.

My opinion for today is that rifles are good defense weapons because they enable the user to fight off armored assailants, whoever those might be. If a single police officer or a whole department are attempting to commit B&E or murder, what's there to distinguish them from gangbangers. If the police officers are doing their best to protect and to server, I would bring out my rifle in support of them. The actions, not the uniforms, decide how I treat people.

I do not advocate hunting cops or even gestapo-pattern Feds. I am leery of helping them as, while individual cops might appreciate my efforts, the organization would be likely to punish me instead.

My view on uniformed people is illustrated by a moral dilemma for which I have no answer yet:

Assume the benefit of hindsight. Is it moral to eliminate a high-ranking Gestapo who is known to be guilty of ordering murders? I'd say "yes". How about a private who carried out that order. I'd say "yes" to that, too. Now, how about the typist who prepared the order? The typist wears the same uniform...but isn't an active participant. Opinions?

To sum this up: I do not advocate starting a war. I do advocate self-defense against anyone trying to murder you without regard for the affiliation of the perp who tries that.

Oleg

------------------
Oleg "peacemonger" Volk

http://dd-b.net/RKBA

[This message has been edited by Oleg Volk (edited June 15, 2000).]
 
What's going on here! I have never insulted a cop, even when they have stopped me for some traffic infraction. I talk to them the way I expect to be addressed and talked to. If they want to talk to me they can call me and I will go th the precinct house for the interview. If they want to check something in my house, and they have the proper documents, they can come in daylight in uniform and knock at the door. I will let them in.

Several times cops have been less than civilized with me, I just let it slide, maybe they are having a bad day or have some other reason for the nastyness. I have no desire to provoke them, have nothing to hide.

I personally feel that the PD in my area are overpaid and basically useless in preventing crime, but I hold them no malice.

If someone breaks in my house at night, they will pay the consequences. If the PD feels they have to do things this way, I will fight back if I can, then sue the fillings out of their teeth afterwards.

I think most cpos will agree with the things I have said, by and large they are not JBT's

Geoff Ross
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top